A thought about long rifles and warband ratings

Do you guys think we should be able to choose where we deploy


  • Total voters
    7

Salj

Major
My Skaven warband rating is 218 and I go up against a squad of at least 7 rieklanders all of them in at least plate. The battle starts and before I even get to to go two of my fastest rats get sniped cuz they were deployed in the middle of the battlefield.

Now I fully admit I rage quit after I got these shots but how fair is it that top of turn 1 before I can even react I lose 2 guys.

Also at my rating I only have 5 Rats and Thier combined equipment and recruitment costs are more than I could of possibly earned.
PSX_20170715_132933.jpg PSX_20170715_132910.jpg
 
The rage quit is the only defense against game bugs.

Sadly the game changes once you have played for a while, once your enemy deploys long rifles and can hit you from across the map the nature of the game morphs. It becomes much less a game of close combat and more a Mordheim recreation of "Enemy at the Gates".

In all the years I played table-top I never once ran into a warband with a Long Rifles. In table top skirmish they are incredibly common (and necessary) at upper levels. I think at the very least they should be limited to one a warband.
 
Yup, I proposed limiting long rifles once and was ignored.

However, since skaven have no armour (you want to keep your M5-6 do you?) even common bows are lethal. Skaven are extremely vulnerable to shooting. S30 on bows feels like hndgun with superior gunpowder anyway.
 
You were right to ask for limiting long rifles as they can very easily take over the game.

Hiding & sneaking while great does not solve everything, eventually you have to pop your head out. If an an enemy marksmen with a bow gets into a good position he can easily plug two or three of your warriors while you scramble to get back into cover. Now if the opposing warband has 5 good marksmen and 3 super tough armored warriors, well then at least the Skaven have numbers on their side...

Oh wait... no

:eek:

(warband size limit of eight. Seven in my case since the system won't let me add an 8th warrior?!?)
 
Exactly. 2 things count in this game. First is damage you can deal - I'm finding out how skven strong can be but man - they struggle versus heavy armoured troops like hell. You need 4 guys just to stunn full plated, shielded guy. And they are lucky if the can do it in one round.

Second is how much damge you can take - here skaven unarguably lack. They have weak armour and by taking it they're forfeiting their main advantage which is speed. They have no strenght reducing shenanigans I expected and parry even with 45% chance is just not enough versus two handers.

And fear... One fersome guy can totally block almost entire warband.
 
Little confused here. You shouldnt be facing anything that high with a warband rating that much.

So are you talking about the poor balance by putting you in a 1 lopsided unwinnable match, 2 uncontrollable character placement, or 3 that the enemy had the range and spotting to see you on turn 1?
 
Yes I would love to see some cheap poison which the Skaven could use to help with armor penetration.

In a game with unarmored opponents the Skaven do well, but once those tanks start rolling out you need numbers on your side to put up a fight and even then it can be tough.

I just played a game where I had three of my best warriors armed with flails and and hand claws struggled to dent an armored warrior's plate. When it was his turn, his three attacks knocked out each of my team in one blow!
 
Chaosticket
I agree it might not be the case. No matter the warband I quite battles like this almost immidiately. However. Skaven have no chance of tanking even 2 long rifles (or any shooting weapons) even for a round without being killed or stunned in best scenario.
 
Skaven have no tools to deal with heavy armour - perfect killer is not enough, especilly as you need not only 40ws but also 40bs to unlock it. I mean, sure in tbletop they had no great weapons either (they could learn how to use them tough) but neither did they had any need of them. You could have black skaven with helbard, S4 (starting stat) and mighty blow if you really wanted - even gromril was totally negated by S6. Here armour is waaaay to much powerfull for skaven weapons. I think that for example item like hooked helbard could be changed to greatsword stats. Why not? that would be something for a start.
 
even gromril was totally negated by S6. Here armour is waaaay to much powerfull .
HA Im gonna keep that quote.

I dont know if any warband with limited skills can really work here. In Mordheim only 6 characters maximum in each warband could learn any skills and they were less powerful than in Warband Skirmish. The other 6-14 members could gain stat increases that are several times more effective than the wimpy and random ones here.

Equipment being limited is also a major problem. Just before skaven came out I had a thread about letting people carry TWO one-handed weapons, which every skaven(though not their monsters) would have.

That being mentioned, do skaven even have mace types weapons? They should as with basic Weapon Mastery they capped armor ranging from a Club 40 to a Skull Hammer with 20.

All of that is off topic and on-topic at the same time because this thread is weird. Skaven really have no match right now for the current metagaming. They dont have long rifles, full plate armor, fear, greatweapons, etc.
 
You bring up good points Marquand.

LEGENDARY ARE YOU READING THESE POSTS?!?

In the table top you never had to worry about the Skaven needing can openers because you did not have regular warriors with plate armor let alone Gromril armor. I was lucky in table top if I could get one game every hour and a half, my warband grew at a glacial pace. In Mordheim Warband Skirmish I can play 10 games in that time so the economy works 10x faster.

You can get weapons and armor combinations that you never would have dreamed of playing table top. The problem of course is that the game was not built for heavily armored gromril warriors carrying long rifles.

The only solution is to rebalance the Skaven so that they can compete at higher levels.
 
Hey Chaosticket keep the ENTIRE quote ;) you missed "for skaven weapons" lol.
Yes the have maces, but will never be as strong as humans without mighty blow. And you can never kill someone heavily armoured with mace in one round. Especially when someone has parry for example. And is difficult to hit. Lack of pit fighter and ..... charge doesn't help here either.
 
Youre pointing out basically every flaw Ive brought up already in other threads.

#1 Armor(and stacking defense skills) being broken. Full plate is ridiculously common because Freelancer mercenaries flooding teams. Parry can be stacked to high rates (45% I think) and can completely negate low-damage. Combine and Parry and you have something like an 80% chance of reducing damage to 0.

I dont think there is any way to negate Parry. You NEED high strength and strength boosting Greatweapons to do enough damage to overcome just Parry.

#2 Long Rifles arent powerful, other ranged weapons are weak so unless you have an entire team of Marksmen and/or the enemy has no defensive upgrades. Accuracy on weapons is way too low because of the long-range penalties being cumulative rather than a fixed penalty.

When you compare SLings toLong Rifles youll see that massive difference.

You should never have been in that position without about a 5-1 warband size difference
 

Salj

Major
Well I might as well keep hijacking the thread my best Skaven is currently my bare handed one as he can actually get enough attacks off to drop most lightly armoured guys in one turn then once I've killed enough force a rout on the plate guys doesnt always work tho.
 
You know, in my opinion it worked not that bad but only in mercenary exclusive enviroment. Being (I think) 12 on the leaderboard with Reiklnd I come across both close combat and shooting only/mixed warbands even though all my troops are full plate, open helmeted, all strenght, all combat skills etc. Long rifle warband with high I spotters will wipe a floor with your knights. But that's what's later.
With appearance of the Skaven armour, strenght, parry etc must indeed be reworked. Also I think that skaven warband composition is a bit flawed.
 

Salj

Major
Long Rifles arent powerful, other ranged weapons are weak so unless you have an entire team of Marksmen and/or the enemy has no defensive upgrades. Accuracy on weapons is way too low because of the long-range penalties being cumulative rather than a fixed penalty.

When you compare SLings toLong Rifles youll see that massive difference.

You should never have been in that position without about a 5-1 warband size difference
Well explain the 4 hits in a row then seemed like they were pretty good

Also I know the picture don't show my whole warband but I had 5 guys to thier 7
 
At the lower levels Skaven work against most warband and I have dropped enemy warriors with bare hands, slings, throwing stars, and nasty attitudes. The problem is once you have played 30+ games a greater percentage of the enemy come at you with heavy armor and excellent marksmen.

God help you once your enemies start deploying long rifles led by multiple freelancers with 2 or 3 attacks, and an additional 4 marksmen carrying hand guns that can move and fire twice a turn...

Good luck with your bare hands and slings.
 
Skaven should have the Warplock jezzail.

Anyone remember that? Its been a signature weapon weapon of theirs since about 1996. Theyre large oversized rifles firing slugs made from Warpstone.

Ingame they would basically be Hochland Long rifles with +20 attack strength but Quick Shot and Nimble DO NOT WORK WITH.

If youre going to have fast skaven, then balance that out with a counter specialist to make something like a scout-sniper combination. Right now, theyre all scouts with no power, no durability, and no range.
 
Jezzail's would help even the odds, so would poison throwing stars, more Skaven in your Warband or even a Rat Ogre...
 
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