ameliorate the missile scourge

studer1972

Corporal
Not unrealistically, missile weapons are too powerful. In the campaign mission, the 300 rated Marienberg Master Reeves are one of the toughest campaign scenarios to get past. Clearly, missile weapons should have more of an impact on warband rating than they do. Some suggestions to tame this savage beast:
1. Increase warband rating for equipped missile weapons
2. Give shields a bonus towards stopping missiles, like the Elven Cloak or Dodge skill
3. Add an option to take cover when hidden that does not allow the character to be targeted with missiles. It is so common for me to think a character is out of sight and have that character peppered with missile fire. Just like in tabletop, we can't posistion our figures to reflect them ducking behind a crate or half wall.

I know it is almost certainly selection bias, but it feels like AI warbands shoot farther, more accurately, and do more damage with their missiles than my own do. I have seen AI controlled warband shoot through large trees that blocked my own line of sight.
 
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Bringabong

Private
Agree with you. Good post.
1. Yes, if it could scale with the units BS skill. A warrior with a low BS skill should be able to take a ranged weapon without a great increase to the warband rating.
2. Yes, for a fairer game dependent on faction. example not for Sisters or Skaven shields.
3. Yes negating all missle attacks as a turn option sounds good, possibly add a equipment item like a Camo blanket or such, and on the next turn that unit must take his turn last.
 

Shangular

General
When I first started playing this game, I did think shooting was very OP, but I no longer think so. I can understand the frustration though.

But here is why I think shooting is fine as is because:

1) The obvious, use terrain to hide (sneak there and move into Hide).
2) You can't get shot if you're in close combat, so use opponents as shields (especially those who are stunnable).
3) At mid - high level warband ratings, you'll find that it takes multiple shooters to take down one warrior, whereas one warrior in close combat can take kill someone himself in one round. A frenzied, crimson shade warrior with a comet maul with max WS, Str and Attacks is more dangerous than someone with a sniper rifle.
4) You can wear multiple elf cloaks (I've been told that this stacks)
5) If you nerf shooting, you will make warbands such as Skaven and Sisters OP. My Sisters right now, with their skill that gives -20 on top of Dodge and the cloak (I only wear one cloak), let's them run easily into warbands of 4 elves taking no casualties. So balance would be an issue if we were to add additional items that reduce shooting.

Against the AI, it's actually easy to win. Just hide or go behind a building and they will run towards you (even if equipped with a gun). So should be easy to position your warriors to get into close combat to prevent them from attacking.
 

studer1972

Corporal
You often can't hide, or there is some tiny crevice the other side can see through that you are not aware of. The bug when if you had a figure standing next to a wall, come parts would show through the wall being of note. Often times, the AI warband is already within range and has higher initiative, so your figures that start out of cover get shot down before getting a chance to move into hiding. Worse yet, unless your model is 100% completely obscured behind cover, even if you are hidden, they can still be targeted, hit, and killed. I have had half,ings hidden, with Dodge and the Elven Cloak sniped by AI warbands. It is often hard to tell if you are behind something slid, and if the point of a weapon or a bit of fluff is not completely concealed, your figure can still be shot.

My main point is that missile weapons barley effect warband rating. The Marienburg Master Reeves are ay harder to beat than a 300 Rating would indicate. I end up having to get to about 500 Rating before I can beat them toe to toe, or I have to take advantage of a scenario like get to the other edge of the map if I have something speedy like a vampire on Crimson Shade. I would rather face a warband of two handed weapon wielding roid monsters than an all (or mostly) missile weapon equipped warband. My other suggestions (give shields a bonus vs missile weapons or adding an affirmative " take cover" action if in solid cover) would not weaken range based warbands much if at all, sine the RNG appears to favor the AI warbands anyway (my point about the halfling,hidden in cover, with Dodge and Elven Cloak still getting hit as often as the big folk in the open).

Mostly, I want ranged weapons to raise warband rating.
 

Shangular

General
Agree there is always room for improvement in the rating calibrations for weapons. But certain missile weapons do increase rating significantly. For example, when I switch from a pistol to a sniper rifle on my captain, the rating goes up 500. When I do so for my elf it goes up 700. I don't know what set-up this one warband is at 300. But also we need to be careful not to disrupt balance elsewhere while adjusting for this.
 

Perl Fisher

Corporal
I agree that ranged weapons are fairly balanced, ratingwise. Pistols (especially dual) are just a bit tiny OP ratingwise, considering the extra no. of fairly highpowered attacks they give, which isn’t quite reflected in the ratings.
The skaven warplocks with their -50 armour bonus are through the roof, however. Skaven warbands equipped exclusively with duals of those (and perhaps 2 x blunderbuss / head) are nearly unbeatable by anyone at the same rating (esp. below 1000).
 

CzaRus

Major
Absolutelly agree with the shield thing. Simply give shields as much ranged protection as the D rating they have.
 

CzaRus

Major
In the real world, most medieval shields are useless against black powder wpns, as they barely slow down the bullet as it penetrates the shield. Shields are not very effective vs. long bows either as the arrows can penetrate 4” of oak: http://www.history-magazine.com/longbow.html
They can indeed, but the overpenetration power of arrows is so low it harldy pierces anything afterwards. And dont forget, if you want this to game to be historically 100% accurate, there would be a debate on a whole another level
 
Im glad this was never implemented.

#1 Missile Weapons do increase Warband rating already. The more Shooting related skills you select the higher the rating goes. Its quite easy to max out your shooting skills and then be unable to rise any further.

#2 Shields dont make you harder to hit, they increase your Defense, which is a chance to take 0 damage.
They would break the game if they also increased defense and made you harder to hit, especially as there already are stacking abilities that already do that.

#3 This is already done, its what being "Hidden" means. You cannot be targeted while Hidden. If you mean being Hidden makes you Invulnerable even when spotted later that would be a game breaking plan.

Any of these suggestions if they have gone through would have made ranged attacks useless.
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Heres my counter-argument.

Arguing X warband is hard to beat because they play to their strengths is just frivolous. Marienburgers have been mentioned and their specialty is Shooting, so this is mostly retaliation them because people lost to them.

Ever play as a Shooting warband? Its a nightmare as you hope to spot any enemies before they close in and start killing your characters. The higher the character level and Warband Rating you get the worse it gets. The strongest ranged weapons are capped at 40 strength. You can reach that with a Level 2 character using a Crossbow. After that the skills almost entirely about are raising accuracy to make hits more reliably. None of them increase your actual damage. The higher you get the weaker you get because the shooting cap is easy to reach.

#1 Ranged Weapons with full skills are useful but practically useless without. A Melee Character will have a fairly high chance to hit even with zero skills, while by default ranged weapons can have so many penalties to be unable to attack.

#2 Ranged Attacks are limited in strength, usually 30 or 40 while melee attacks can have several stacking effects to to reach 50-80 or so, accuracy high enough to reach 95%, with additional Attacks, and all this to perform one-turn-kills. Oh and Fear effects.

#3 Its easy for melee characters controlled manually to stay hidden so ranged characters cannot even target them, and to stack defense so high they stop 80% of damage from doing anything.

I could argue the reverse, that melee focused warbands are broken because of the above. A well-played melee warband is practically invisible, be nearly invulnerable if they actually do get spotted, and can hit so hard to get a kill any time you see "X is charging".
 

CzaRus

Major
Im glad this was never implemented.

#1 Missile Weapons do increase Warband rating already. The more Shooting related skills you select the higher the rating goes. Its quite easy to max out your shooting skills and then be unable to rise any further.

#2 Shields dont make you harder to hit, they increase your Defense, which is a chance to take 0 damage.
They would break the game if they also increased defense and made you harder to hit, especially as there already are stacking abilities that already do that.

#3 This is already done, its what being "Hidden" means. You cannot be targeted while Hidden. If you mean being Hidden makes you Invulnerable even when spotted later that would be a game breaking plan.

Any of these suggestions if they have gone through would have made ranged attacks useless.
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Heres my counter-argument.

Arguing X warband is hard to beat because they play to their strengths is just frivolous. Marienburgers have been mentioned and their specialty is Shooting, so this is mostly retaliation them because people lost to them.

Ever play as a Shooting warband? Its a nightmare as you hope to spot any enemies before they close in and start killing your characters. The higher the character level and Warband Rating you get the worse it gets. The strongest ranged weapons are capped at 40 strength. You can reach that with a Level 2 character using a Crossbow. After that the skills almost entirely about are raising accuracy to make hits more reliably. None of them increase your actual damage. The higher you get the weaker you get because the shooting cap is easy to reach.

#1 Ranged Weapons with full skills are useful but practically useless without. A Melee Character will have a fairly high chance to hit even with zero skills, while by default ranged weapons can have so many penalties to be unable to attack.

#2 Ranged Attacks are limited in strength, usually 30 or 40 while melee attacks can have several stacking effects to to reach 50-80 or so, accuracy high enough to reach 95%, with additional Attacks, and all this to perform one-turn-kills. Oh and Fear effects.

#3 Its easy for melee characters controlled manually to stay hidden so ranged characters cannot even target them, and to stack defense so high they stop 80% of damage from doing anything.

I could argue the reverse, that melee focused warbands are broken because of the above. A well-played melee warband is practically invisible, be nearly invulnerable if they actually do get spotted, and can hit so hard to get a kill any time you see "X is charging".
I personally have no problem with high level snipers, as long rifles send your rating sky high and are brutally punishing for anyone standing in the open. The main problem with ranged is pistols - they have so little rating influence, yet they give you armor piercing attacks, option to bypass fear by default since shooting doesnt require passing fear tests in close combat, and they enhance melee to a whole new broken level - they also bypass horde assist rules. 3 guys gang up on you? shoot 1 dead, stun the other and feel freee to attack!
I feel that nerfing pistols via giving them rating worth a hand gun (at least), or maybe lowering their damage to 3 instead of 4 (seriously, pistols having same damage potential as long rifles with 8 times the barrel lengh just makes 0 sence) since they are so much more universally usefull... And I havent touched the insane warplock pistols with - 50 enemy D yet... Just make it -30 D tops, its already broken a s it is. 800 rated Skaven pistol warband beats just about everybody without exclusions, its ridiculous.
 
I personally have no problem with high level snipers, as long rifles send your rating sky high and are brutally punishing for anyone standing in the open. The main problem with ranged is pistols - they have so little rating influence, yet they give you armor piercing attacks, option to bypass fear by default since shooting doesnt require passing fear tests in close combat, and they enhance melee to a whole new broken level - they also bypass horde assist rules. 3 guys gang up on you? shoot 1 dead, stun the other and feel freee to attack!
I feel that nerfing pistols via giving them rating worth a hand gun (at least), or maybe lowering their damage to 3 instead of 4 (seriously, pistols having same damage potential as long rifles with 8 times the barrel lengh just makes 0 sence) since they are so much more universally usefull... And I havent touched the insane warplock pistols with - 50 enemy D yet... Just make it -30 D tops, its already broken a s it is. 800 rated Skaven pistol warband beats just about everybody without exclusions, its ridiculous.
So now this is about Pistols and Rating? I dont have any experience with Pistols. To me they seem kind of useless because the range and accuracy is so low. If what you say is true it just so happens youre talking about the sweet spot when theyre actually useful. Pistols are anti-Undead weapons? Ill take a note of that.

Mordheim more or less follows the Mordheim tabletop game rules, in which almost all Blackpowder weapons were the same strength 4(0), "above average".
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I dont have Skaven unlocked either. Ive heard of how Warplock Pistols on Skaven in this game and again thats the warbands' strength. Warplock Pistols are basically firing Uranium bullets. II can imagine having 5/5 movement, plus Gutter Runner for 6/6 Movement, and various other bonuses are exactly the way theyre meant to be played, as stealth ambush predators.

List what they dont have: Most Bludgeoning weapons (limiting their anti-armor choices), most two-handed weapons, bows, crossbows, and besides pistols I dont know of any blackpowder weapons. Skaven dont have much in terms of weapons period. Oh and their Leadership is so low theyll fail almost every time. Against Undead and the like Pistols are basically the only thing Skaven can use.

So Special tactics and Skaven equipment like the Warplock Pistols are their handful of good choices. Its still capped at 8 range. I dont know if they even keep working after the first round in melee.
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Comparing that to Hochland Long Rifles? A Hochland Long Rifle has 48 range, enough to hit anything your can see. Even then theyre not really overpowered because the Rating is so skyhigh theyre more of a drawback than advantage. Youre better off sticking to an Elven Bow. Many warbands can use Bows with 24 range. So long as you dont raise youre rating too high thats not a problem. Skaven dont have that option.

When is an Upgrade a Downgrade? When it makes enemies more difficult.

If Pistols and Skaven are actually useful then great. Im more worried about the warbands without a clear strategy. Most dont have the advantages they did on the tabletop.
 

CzaRus

Major
So now this is about Pistols and Rating? I dont have any experience with Pistols. To me they seem kind of useless because the range and accuracy is so low. If what you say is true it just so happens youre talking about the sweet spot when theyre actually useful. Pistols are anti-Undead weapons? Ill take a note of that.

Mordheim more or less follows the Mordheim tabletop game rules, in which almost all Blackpowder weapons were the same strength 4(0), "above average".
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I dont have Skaven unlocked either. Ive heard of how Warplock Pistols on Skaven in this game and again thats the warbands' strength. Warplock Pistols are basically firing Uranium bullets. II can imagine having 5/5 movement, plus Gutter Runner for 6/6 Movement, and various other bonuses are exactly the way theyre meant to be played, as stealth ambush predators.

List what they dont have: Most Bludgeoning weapons (limiting their anti-armor choices), most two-handed weapons, bows, crossbows, and besides pistols I dont know of any blackpowder weapons. Skaven dont have much in terms of weapons period. Oh and their Leadership is so low theyll fail almost every time. Against Undead and the like Pistols are basically the only thing Skaven can use.

So Special tactics and Skaven equipment like the Warplock Pistols are their handful of good choices. Its still capped at 8 range. I dont know if they even keep working after the first round in melee.
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Comparing that to Hochland Long Rifles? A Hochland Long Rifle has 48 range, enough to hit anything your can see. Even then theyre not really overpowered because the Rating is so skyhigh theyre more of a drawback than advantage. Youre better off sticking to an Elven Bow. Many warbands can use Bows with 24 range. So long as you dont raise youre rating too high thats not a problem. Skaven dont have that option.

When is an Upgrade a Downgrade? When it makes enemies more difficult.

If Pistols and Skaven are actually useful then great. Im more worried about the warbands without a clear strategy. Most dont have the advantages they did on the tabletop.
It is because pistols are the ultimate Skaven weapons that they should be higher in rating - much like long rifles and comet mauls raise (as the ultimate weapons of other factions) rating to unseen highs. Low range is not a problem at all with 6/6 movement, psychology is non existent already, since Skaven can get both Combat master (0 rating impact) and Fearsome (0 rating impact apart from required Strengh). Rout tests dont happen if you get alpha strike with a pistollier warband, as you kill most of your enemies in the 2 turns you get. And mind you, Skaven dont need crossbows/bows/rifles do destroy you, lack of 2 handers is also no hindrance as 2 handers have the most impact on rating out of all weapons, their AP weapons are the best in the game with insane -50 D adn their sorcerer has 100% cast chance spell which halves targets armour - basically stripping you of all that expenisive gromril, helmet and maybe shield by default. And Undead/Strigoi are 3nd and 2rd weakest warbands (1st being dwarves), no counter to Skaven, maybe in early game, otherwise Skaven will destroy them with ease.

why did we turn this into another skaven rant again?

And comparing to other weapons, pistols give you additional rating alsmot free melee attacks, while with other weapons bonus attacks again send your rating to the space. NOT fair that my single guy with a hammer adn 2 attacks faces 3 pistolliers each with 1 attack but bonus 2-3 from pistols (3-4 attacks each turn then in total for each model = 9-12 attacks for his warband vs my 2). Definatelly not op...
Pistols have minimal impact on rating while providing too good bonuses, pls nerf, period.
 
It is because pistols are the ultimate Skaven weapons that they should be higher in rating - much like long rifles and comet mauls raise (as the ultimate weapons of other factions) rating to unseen highs. Low range is not a problem at all with 6/6 movement, psychology is non existent already, since Skaven can get both Combat master (0 rating impact) and Fearsome (0 rating impact apart from required Strengh). Rout tests dont happen if you get alpha strike with a pistollier warband, as you kill most of your enemies in the 2 turns you get. And mind you, Skaven dont need crossbows/bows/rifles do destroy you, lack of 2 handers is also no hindrance as 2 handers have the most impact on rating out of all weapons, their AP weapons are the best in the game with insane -50 D adn their sorcerer has 100% cast chance spell which halves targets armour - basically stripping you of all that expenisive gromril, helmet and maybe shield by default. And Undead/Strigoi are 3nd and 2rd weakest warbands (1st being dwarves), no counter to Skaven, maybe in early game, otherwise Skaven will destroy them with ease.

why did we turn this into another skaven rant again?

And comparing to other weapons, pistols give you additional rating alsmot free melee attacks, while with other weapons bonus attacks again send your rating to the space. NOT fair that my single guy with a hammer adn 2 attacks faces 3 pistolliers each with 1 attack but bonus 2-3 from pistols (3-4 attacks each turn then in total for each model = 9-12 attacks for his warband vs my 2). Definatelly not op...
Pistols have minimal impact on rating while providing too good bonuses, pls nerf, period.
Again, good for the Skaven. I may add them to my future Buy List. I just shoot them once and they flee.

I remember some things about Pistols that may not have been carried over.
#1 Pistols could only be used in the first turn in melee. That made them great for charging, but useless in round 2.
#2 Pistols being used in close combat suffered a heavy penalty to hit. Here that would be like -30%.
#3 Pistols were stuck at 4(0) strength.
#4 Pistols did not gain any bonuses from melee skills, as they were Shooting Attacks.
#5 Using two pistols totally prevented you from making melee attacks with melee weapons, also making your Attack stat useless.
#6 You cannot use Pistols in consecutive turns without the Hunter skill.
#7 If anything Pistols are kind of nerfed. Here you have to purchase the Pistolier Skill to equip Dual Pistols.


Can Pistols ignore Fear effects while charging?
Can Pistols be used over and over in close combat without running away?

I do know Pistols require the Hunter Skill which is one of the highest rating risers in the game. Pistols may be cheap, but with the right skills theyre very costly. 800 rating is not "low".
 

CzaRus

Major
Again, good for the Skaven. I may add them to my future Buy List. I just shoot them once and they flee.

I remember some things about Pistols that may not have been carried over.
#1 Pistols could only be used in the first turn in melee. That made them great for charging, but useless in round 2.
#2 Pistols being used in close combat suffered a heavy penalty to hit. Here that would be like -30%.
#3 Pistols were stuck at 4(0) strength.
#4 Pistols did not gain any bonuses from melee skills, as they were Shooting Attacks.
#5 Using two pistols totally prevented you from making melee attacks with melee weapons, also making your Attack stat useless.
#6 You cannot use Pistols in consecutive turns without the Hunter skill.
#7 If anything Pistols are kind of nerfed. Here you have to purchase the Pistolier Skill to equip Dual Pistols.


Can Pistols ignore Fear effects while charging?
Can Pistols be used over and over in close combat without running away?

I do know Pistols require the Hunter Skill which is one of the highest rating risers in the game. Pistols may be cheap, but with the right skills theyre very costly. 800 rating is not "low".
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? ARE WE PLAYING THE SAME GAME?
I am talking Mordheim:Warband Skirmish over here.

Pistols can be fired any time at any given moment, in melee, outside of melee, with no penalties to aim whatsoever, they are exponentially more usefull in round 2 since you dont move and hence can fire 1 more shot thanks to Quick Shot (0 rating impact). Pistols ar stuck at 40 Per shot, but crits are not rare at all and you can target enemies at whip distance, if not even farther away. Pistols dont use WS to determine hits in close combat, therefore bypassing Horde assist as it makes no difference to hit chance if you are fighting 1 opponent or 6 at once, shooting hit chance stays the same. Using 2 pistols does NOT prevent from charging and attacking in melee, making use of your attacks and shooting on top of that - not OP at all. You dont have to charge Fearsome enemies, you can just WALK NEXT TO THEM, unleash your volley of lead and on turn 2 attack (f.e.), ignoring his fearsomness with shooting the pistols into his face. Hunter skill has VERY LITTLE TO NO rating impact, especially compared to melee skills like Strengh increases. 800 is super low when you can have other warbands sitting at 2000-2500 + and still not be maxed out or even nearly as effective as Skaven pistolliers: example from my archive: Middenheim warband Cries of Hatred, with a mage cap using dual pistols, and 3 bois (1 ostland great axe, 2 commet mauls), none of them has 3 attacks, yet the warband sits at 1634 while only having 4 non maxed people. The previously mentioned Skaven pistol warband will annihilate them by turn 3 (2 turns of combat maximum), if the captian tries to escape then turn 5if hes lucky, with Skaven having minimal/no casulties (and no injuries and bonus of lat least 6 XP per model for underdog)
Pistols need rating increase to at least double their current rating. Skaven pistols need nerfing in penetration power, this way they are just ranged warhammers with no rating on them.
 
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