And Now What? What to do when when a game cant be finished?

Ive pointed out how this game has poor balance and unachievable goals. Yesterday I just realized Ive finally lost hope and become lethargic rather than determined to beat this game as I was earlier.

#1 equipment and wyrdstone shards. The higher end equipment is ridiculously expensive costing hundreds or over a thousand in the case of Gromril Armor. Wyrdstone exchange and find rates are low so I can expect another 400+ shards to have my characters in armor.

#2 skills and experience. There are so many necessary skills to do anything without making a depleted flawed(that is easily killed) character. Giving my current characters the capability to get into melee and survive would take 10-15 more skills each, and at the rate of 15-30 experience per level and 0-1 experience per character per battle its not really achievable.

#3 PVE and PVP. There isnt really PVP as players cant actively participate against one another. PVE is AI-controlled player-teams. There are some objectives but they are uncommon and at best give extra shards, and maybe if you find some shards in the maps you get some bonus experience. Theyre pretty rare so every match is "kill or route the enemy" several hundred times.

So now what? I cant play the hundreds of battles and I cant just start over with a stand-alone warband like the tabletop Mordheim game. Warband SKirmish isnt a pick-up-and-play game, its a tactical RPG.

Ive make suggestions to the Game Developers to balance these out well before this point, but too late now.

Im hoping some Moderators can help me on this.
 

morjax

YouTuber & Moderator
Staff member
Again, I'm not part of the dev team, just the forum mod team.

1) I'm not sure what the ideal solution is here, but if the min-maxed perfect gear set is too easy to get, then everyone would have the exact same things much earlier on the leaderboards (full gromril and scoped rifles, etc). Having the very best endgame gear take a while to get is frustrating, but it also allows for more variety and gradient mid-pack on the leaderboards. I'd also point out that on the tabletop, I think I only ever owned one gromril armor at a time in any given warband. Likewise for long rifles, I've only ever seen three in one warband, and that player made extreme accommodations to make that happen.

2) I understand that skills and XP are frustrating for you, and I've seen comments in a couple places now that this is a departure from the TT. You used to be able to select any upgrade with any character without almost any prerequisites. Another facet of this is that the games and progression were much slower in the Tabletop. You can sit down with a fresh warband in M:WS and get perhaps 20 new skills in your warband in one evening. If they didn't spread this out in some way (using either prerequisites, or slower skill gaining), then everyone would again be min-maxed by midway up the leaderboards.

Another food for thought here is that you are always ranked against warbands of a similar rating to yours. There is some variation there, and sometimes I wonder if that variation is too large, but you get bonus XP and reduced chance to die when you are the underdog in rating. Another way to state this is that although you are hobbled by prerequisites that slow your progress, so are your opponents, and to the same extent more or less as you. As the game grows, matching warband ratings will become tighter and tighter, I suspect, leading to less imbalanced matches.

3) I agree. I know that PVP is being developed, and at one point in the alpha, they even took a proto-PVP build for a test flight (which was not implemented being that it was not ready for showtime, but they have made some tests in this direction). Mordheim tabletop was always about the PVP for me. The banter, grudge matches, smack talk, community were always the best part for me. I eagerly await PVP implementation, and think it will be a critical part of the game's possibility for success in the wider marketplace.

Your other point is also spot on that maps and scenarios do become a bit stale over time. However, this is mostly a product of the speed of games; M:WS actually has more scenarios than the vanilla TT did. The trouble is that whereas you might play 20 games with a warband in the TT and be considered fairly experienced, you might play 200 games in M:WS with one warband. If you've got twice as many scenarios, but are playing 10 times as many games, the games are going to feel about 5x more stale. I know there are plans for more maps, which is great, and I hope very much for more win conditions like wandering monster, attack of the giant rats, escort the merchant, etc., etc.

I am sad to hear you are feeling burnt out on the game. Clearly, you've played it enough and with enough enjoyment along the way that you've gotten to the point where you can formulate all these points based on your experience. I hope that your time playing so far has been enjoyable (at least we can say that you're still here posting, rather than having disappeared forever, so at least you seem to still be at least a bit invested in the progress of the game). I can't speak for the dev team, but having spent much time in the orbit of indie developers, I have seen firsthand the pace of development. I can just about guarantee that the dev team would love to go much faster with development if they had the resources and people to do so, but they are where they are and you can only get so much done in 40 hours a week with a team of a half dozen people wearing all the hats.

If you're feeling burnt out, feel free to take a break from the game, the forums, or both as you require. You have already provided a large sum of feedback for the devs, and development will progress while you're away, should you decide to take a hiatus.
 
This game just isnt made that this is a single player PVE game in mind. Most game have scaling systems so the higher level you get the more difficult the challenge and the more rewarding it is.

This isnt programmed with the expectation that everyone is upgrading to Gromril weapons, armor, and Long Rifles for equipment or that characters are going to upgrade to be several times as defensively and offensively powerful. Those even grow unevenly throwing balance out. Shooting is painfully weak as the peak is when you get Quick Shot and Trick Shooter at about level 5-10. The only upgrade after that is the Long Rifles which take multiple skills just to use.

In Mordheim that was fine as quality items were so expensive you could have large warbands with a lot of cheap but effective henchmen, so it was Quality-Vs-Quantity. Skaven could wreck you day with 20 slings. Here I can face very difficult battles with with some top tier equipment but get 0 experience and 0-3 shards, meaning Im fighting battles that are impossible to profit from without 0 casualties.

The ceiling is higher but the changes are made so you require upgrades just to reach the level starting character in Mordheim as you dont even start with most weapon proficiencies. There a score of 3(0) is a 1-10 scale with 10 being GODS, here a 30 score is bottom of the barrel when youre expected to have 70 in some stats by a certain point. Im afraid there actually will be things introduced with 100 in stats at some point that will be so high Initiative it will get multiple turns, or weapon skill 100 so its impossible to hit.

I think this feels like being stuck in the starting area of an MMORPG forced to fight Players controlled by Bots. There just isnt the PVE content to keep going so it feels REAAAAALY stretched out. Actually that makes me think of Asian MMORPGs. Those are major grindfests with big empty areas, few objectives, little direction, and little reward from your actions.
 

morjax

YouTuber & Moderator
Staff member
I'm not sure what to tell you, Chaosticket. It seems to me from this post and others of yours that you're hoping for the tabletop closely ported onto mobile devices. I think we can both agree that we want this game to be successful as possible, and to scratch that well-loved Mordheim itch.

For my own two cents, it is hard to wait for new content, but good to know that more warbands and PVP are in the works. I think you'll agree that the devs have been rather receptive and participatory through the development process? It's not perfect, it can't come soon enough for me, but it is coming along bit by bit.

I have personally found the game great fun (hence my participation in alpha, beta, release), even thought it's in the tradition of Mordheim TT rather than a direct to mobile port. Again, You have provided much actionable feedback for the devs to chew the cud on, and clearly enjoy the game well enough to play up to the higher echelons of the leaderboard. If you are feeling burnt out, a break may both give the devs time to make some progress on their roadmap, and time for more players to join, debug, and improve the game so it's better when you return!

You've in general done a good job in stating what you think to be the issue and then providing ways you think if could be fixed. I encourage you to continue to do so, unless you're sick of it, in which case don't feel forced.
 
Im going to ask you, aside from accumulating money, what is the goal if the Legendary-Games staff in regards to this game? Make a bad adapation like Krrunch(blood bowl), make a good adapatation like Battlefleet Gothic Leviathan, or go ina different direction and make Xcom 1994 or Total War Warhammer?

Right now this isnt a balanced single player game. I dont even know how its expected for people to be able to play without putting in cash daily.

As Mordheim Adaptation is misses that Mordheim is a PVP tactical game. The RPG elements are one of the reason to have a Mordheim Campaign, but you could just as easily have stand-alone skirmish games. For players of Warhammer Fantasy used to moving units of soldiers and monsters around those concepts are very different. Here you would need to make some pretty heavy changes like a text box between players, higher starting gold, etc

For an ongoing campaign you really need to scale the prices and/or income of things down. I dont even want to know how new items will come out with even higher prices, like a Double Barreled Long Rifle, 2000 gold

So I dont know what youre trying to do. I remember Last Stand Deadzone had that problem. PVE was decent but PVP wrecked things as you could lose nearly everything and you couldnt shut it off. Most of the new content was just more things for PVP and some higher PVE zones being the same old things but higher level.
 

morjax

YouTuber & Moderator
Staff member
I can't speak to the goals of the devs, but I can't imagine they'd want anything but the best for the game they've put so much time and care into crafting.

Aside from the Rat Ogre, which I picked up to support LG, and because I was eager to try it, it's been weeks since I've spent fate. Granted, I'm also sure I don't play as much as you and some others here, but it can be done. I think in part, it's about expectations of the expiration date of one's units. I don't expect them to last too long, so it's a pleasant surprise when they do ;)

I agree wholeheartedly that this game will not have a chance to grow into it's potential without well-implemented PVP. To that end, I could probably start a new thread with items that would enrich PVP, and should be considered for inclusion.

As a reminder: I'm just a player like you. I have no ties to the dev team other than a friendly relationship having spent a lot of time here and enjoying the game they've made (in reference to your comment that you don't know what I'm trying to do - all I'm trying to do is play the game and try to help improve it).
 
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