Balance issues

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Domowoj, Dec 16, 2018.

  1. Domowoj Private

    Message Count:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    3
    What is this undead spell that one-shots my ogre for 30 damage? hmm. Interesting design decision.

    Fanatics are too fragile . They worked in the TT game because they had increased toughness. As it is, they die to a stiff breeze and the computer AI always targets them first, often running past multiple closer opponents to get to those soft, juicy fanatics. Please make them more resilient somehow so they can handle at least one round of combat. They aren't even glass cannons; they are glass rubber-band-guns. #alwaysthefirsttodie

    On that note, what is the point of the flagellant armour? Witch Hunters have plenty of leadership buffs available to them already; the initiative penalties incurred do not outweigh the measly benefits. Am I missing something here?

    Armour/defense/parry seems to work very well in this game, hence these become desirable things to have. Hammers seem to work very well in this game, while swords (at least 1-handed swords) seem to just hit 0s each time. I know this sounds anecdotal...because it is. But I've been playing this game for a while (approaching 3000 shards). Is it intended that an entire warband with swords hit for 0 damage against a single armoured vampire? In the TT, you could parry ONCE per turn. I may be misremembering, but I thought there was a 3-parry limit in an earlier version of this game?

    Why did Reiklanders get speed skills nerf? They are/were the most popular warband, but not the most competitive.

    I'm sorry if some of this comes off as complainy, but I am genuinely curious about these things. The parry thing frustrates me to no end. My frenzied leader with many combat and strength skills, with an ithilmar sword, swings four 0-damage attacks in a row, multiple combat turns in a row, basically every game against comparatively-ranked warbands.
  2. Algirdas25 Corporal

    Message Count:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    11
    1 doom - - target perform str. Test (target str. +15str) if target fail test, it die. (so kill necromancer /sometimes enemy has vamp spellcarster - kill them first)
    2 just give them comet hammers - with hight initiative and ws and str. If they can be deadly to anything,
    3? What flagelant armor (request foto i never seen this armor)
    4 sword in close combat the only good is gromil one (or vampire if you play undead) try this, second is long ilithmar for marksmen, rise you ws skill, (the sword of rehabel (flame one) is good for Armored spellcarster cap build it can be devastating)
    Vamps can get 100+ armor and highest ws skill so without hammers or suppressing fire from hochland long Rifles don't dare to fight them
    5 if they don't they get that nerf why bother playing other human merc
    6 try flaming sword build for your cap
  3. Domowoj Private

    Message Count:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thanks, but I'm not asking for work-around tactics. Just having everyone in the entire game use comet hammers and hochland long rifles doesn't help the overall state of the game. Instead, I wanted to mention things that I feel are imbalanced after playing for a few hundred hours. Maybe the game could move in a direction where players can make thoughtful decisions instead of following no-brainer "builds".

    The flagellent armour i'm referring to are the special witch-hunter headgear.
  4. Algirdas25 Corporal

    Message Count:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    11
    -well there some ideas from other members of forum to help solve the problem
    -high str. Negate some armor point
    -you can't use double shot with blackbowder weapon - this will make repeater handgun came back/elven bow and repeater crossbow(in TT that was added in one of rulebooks)
    -armor will have also initiative penalty
    -armor and shield will give lover armor but get missile defense
    Np. Slield have 5 armor in Melle or 15 def against missile weapons

    See no evil and speak no evil - not use them they just aren't worth it compare to great hat /stove hat
  5. Algirdas25 Corporal

    Message Count:
    66
    Trophy Points:
    11
    See no evil and speak no evil it just a very cheap way to boost your meatshields leadership
  6. Trapsinger Brigadier

    Message Count:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Hi, there!

    The Necro spell is meant to be an auto kill attack, but it can be resisted by the targets strength, making it less likely to work on higher level troops, especially the ogre who has the highest strength in the game. To resist the spell more, raise your strength to max early if it is a problem for you. It's still always possible to be unlucky though.

    I also think that fanatics are a little on the fragile side, and I'd love to see them get resilience tier 2 the same that ghouls do, but several folks disagree with me. The counter-argument is that they are a cheap hard hitting troop that can get all the melee damage skills, and you can still get their armor up to 40 as they are, which is still higher than you can use against most high level warbands that will be hitting you with hammers that reduce your armor to 20 anyway.

    As a side note, tactically, the AI doesn't attack the lowest armored troop, it attacks the lowest weapon skill. I raised my fanatic to max weapon skill (65) and they always go after him last now, combine that with his base attack strength of around 65 and he's a pretty scary dude.

    The Fanatic armor you are referring to, I think, is the Speak No Evil, and See No Evil armor pieces for the head, the blindfold and the gag. They should never be used on a Fanatic, sadly, as Fanatics are immune to leadership tests, which means they only give your Fanatic a penalty to initiative and they do nothing else at all. Those pieces are meant to be a cheap way to raise your Zealots' and Priest's leadership so that they can pass all their fears tests and dig in against "evil" warbands that tend to be fear heavy like the undead, and to help the priest maintain his leadership based spells. Try giving your Fanatics the Penance Cage, it's equally lore appropriate appearance wise, but the benefit is 5 defense instead of leadership, so they can actually benefit from it.

    Armor is definitely a problem in this game, and we've suggested several things to the development team about fixing it. Our personal favorite, as Algirdas25 said, is to add an enemy armor reduction effect to strength over 40, so that any sufficiently strong character can pound through armor, which was the rule in tabletop, and we all pretty much think it should be implemented here. We just haven't convinced legendary yet. In the mean time, it's important to understand that after you pass your opposed weapon skill roll to hit, you have to make an additional weapon skill roll modified by the targets armor for each point of damage (you get 1 roll per 10 points of strength). So for getting through an opponents armor there are three things that will help you. High weapon skill and/or high enemy defense modifiers will improve your chance for each roll to do damage, and high strength will give you more tries to succeed at one of those rolls. A Gromril sword is more likely to do damage because of the armor penetration than an ithilmar sword, but if you have high weapon skill and high strength you should still probably get through. And the trade off is the Ithilmar parries more, and will always attack first.

    There is currently in the testing phase a change to the core game mechanics such that no stat can exceed a 90% success rate. This will help with killing vampires a little as they are currently able to cap out at 105% defense, so extreme vampire tanks will be a little more killable. It shouldn't really have an effect on any other defense rolls as no one else can get over 85% without consumables, that i've never seen the AI use.

    Reiklanders got the speed nerf to bring them in line with the other human mercenaries and make them more "fair." Previously Reiklanders were the only humans capable of using every single skill line, a trait normally reserved for captains. A whole warband of Captains is not fair. Now each of the three human mercenaries groups is missing access to academic and one other skill line, a different skill line for each warband, giving each warband their own weakness. Middenheimers can't shoot at you, reiklanders can't sneak up on you, and marienburgers have the lowest melee damage and armor. They do all require different strategies now, but they should be within experimental error of balanced if they are played right. The reasoning behind why each warband is missing the skill tree that they are missing, is that troops from each warband in Warband Skirmish, have exactly the same skill choices as a Champion from the same warband in Tabletop.

    That said Reikland isn't the most popular because the most people chose them, it's because they are the only warband you get for free in the android version of the game, which is the most popular platform for this title, and all the warbands made by players are pooled together into the same list that the AI pulls from to play against you. So even if you aren't an android player you are still stuck with the bulk of created warbands being those made by free players. Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't even more reiklanders, but they tend to thin out at higher warband ratings where more people are paying anyway.

    I'm not an employee of Legendary, but I have been beta testing for them for over a year, so while my opinions about things like Fanatic defense, or changes to rules on armor, should not be taken to represent the company, I am pretty educated on the issues surrounding the game. I hope this answered some of your questions and addressed some of your concerns. Good feedback is always welcome, and there is still work to be done on the game. I think they are still accepting new testers if you want to reach out to them directly.
  7. Shangular Major

    Message Count:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Just to comment on Fanatics, I know there is a conversation about the Fanatic in a separate thread and some suggestions are to give them skill to make them more tougher. But one reason why I'm not in favor of increasing their toughness is in line with TT version where they started with a Toughness of 4, which is the max of humans. They could never improve on this and at the end of the day, any they aren't tougher than any human who had their Toughness upgraded. So perhaps to mirror that in the mobile version, they should start off with getting the Resilient skill upon the selection of the Fanatic path? But I don't think they should be given higher maximum resilience than a normal human or any other defense bonuses beyond that. .
  8. Trapsinger Brigadier

    Message Count:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    46
    The problem with your comparison to tabletop is that they were a *henchman* with toughness 4, and henchmen couldn't get toughness increases, so they were the only human henchmen that could ever get toughness 4. That's why we keep saying they should get a toughness bonus. Because in tabletop they were 1 toughness higher than other human henchmen could ever get. Yes that didn't compare to how good a hero could get, but in this they are heroes, so if they are meant to be like the tabletop version, but a hero, then they should be tougher. In my opinion.
  9. Shangular Major

    Message Count:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I can see that perspective. Wouldn't starting with the Resilient skill solve that?

    In the TT, even if that henchmen was lucky to get the "lad has got talent" upgrade, making him a hero, he still would be limited to the Human maximum toughness of 4.
  10. Trapsinger Brigadier

    Message Count:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    46
    well toughness 4 plus resilient which was a skill in tabletop too, so actually 5, but yes that's the same as any other human with access to strength skills.

    but since warriors and marksmen were also henchmen in tabletop, shouldn't fanatics be higher than them? Since they were in tabletop? My point is, a flagellant in tabletop was more expensive than a warrior, because it was *better*, but in this they are cheaper and worse. I'd sort of like to get them to the point where they are roughly the same at least? as it is right now, i think they are just hands down worse than a middenheimer warrior, who gets all the same skills plus full armor. (minus leadership immunity, but that's pretty "meh" at endgame since you can get fear and all alone immunity separately from other skills)
  11. Shangular Major

    Message Count:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Ok, perhaps allow the Fanatic to be able to have 2 upgrades of Resilience simulate the Toughness of 5?

    With the TT, yes the Flagellant was more expensive but that's because he started off with higher skills. In the TT what you start off with is more valuable because most campaigns won't last more than 15-20 games.

    In comparison to the Middenheimer warrior, given that many people use the comet maul which limits the Defense to 20 (negating Gromil), wouldn't they be about the same because with the Step Aside and Resilient they will have Defense of 20, but have higher strength and immune to fear (which is beneficial at lower levels)?
  12. Trapsinger Brigadier

    Message Count:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    46
    The immune to fear is good at low levels, but the middenheimers get a strength boost bringing them closer to fearsome which does the same thing. And not *everyone* has comet mauls.

    But if the defense doesn't matter anyway, there is no reason not to give them resilient 2 for lore reasons, if it makes them feel tougher.
  13. Shangular Major

    Message Count:
    253
    Trophy Points:
    31
    The Middenheimer strength boost does bring it closer to fearsome, but the Fanatics don't need Fearsome and thus can save a skill point to put on something else. True that not everyone has comet mauls, but a lot of high level warbands use them and their Ogres use the Ogre maul. Perhaps part of the problem is tied to the other conversation of how armor is too good. Thus if that's resolved, perhaps Fanatics will be closer to others in terms of durability?

    I think end game (if you could call it that) Middenheim warrior will have more durability potential but Fanatic will hit harder. We do want them to play differently. I think that's important for each warband to be as unique as possible. It is unfortunate that multiple ogres can make them play the same, but that's another topic.
  14. Trapsinger Brigadier

    Message Count:
    331
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Fanatic costs a point too though, so you don't actually save the Fearsome point, you just spend it on Fanatic instead. Also fanatic starts two lower weapon skill advances than the middenheimer, and many will want fearsome also so they can cause fear in addition to being immune to it. Also the middenheimer gets a free point of strength, and the fanatic doesn't start with the weapon training he needs, so actually the fanatic is 6 points behind, not one ahead.

    Yes the Fanatic does have five more strength in the long run, but the middenheimer starts higher and gets to cap faster, and the difference is only 5 points, which as Strength is not a huge difference. One extra try half of the time to make a wesponskill check modified by armor, to do only one more point of damage. "Endgame" comet maulers are hitting for like 14 to 18 damage on a crit, a difference of 5 strength is very small. If you want them to actually hit harder, I think the bonus should be more like 10 than 5. But that said, I'd still rather see them get resilient 2, it feels more in character for them, and really not that big of a change.

Share This Page