Devs - When will you fix the game?

Ok, so...when?
I (and many others on this forum) pointed out many things in mechanics that make the game unplayble or unenjoyable. Nothing is changing at all. You're working on the new things while leaving old ones as they are. And they are not working well.
1) Skaven - they are still extremely weak. Entire threads how to fix them. Almost nothing changed (except giving them a few skills which solved nothing).
2) AI ignoring damage - it's been more than 1,5 months sice I reported the issue. 2 weeks ago I made a thread pointing out a potential source of the problem. No response at all.
3) Experience issue when sometimes (in my case EVERY battle now) you don't get XP for surviving.
etc.
As I understand you're working on a rat ogre etc. I don't care about rat ogre. Certainly I won't spend real money to purchase fate coins (unless he's paid for with real $ which won't be spend either) to get him since skven as a warband just suck. And I'll discourge anyone interested in buying skaven dlc or any other future releases untill you make this game balanced. What's the point of making new warband when it's design is so flwed that after a few hours of gameplay you meet a wall and don't want to play nymore?

Once, twice a week we get some mods response, how your team is small and there are so many things to do. Communication with you guys is extrememly difficult and there's no chance for meritoric discussion because a) you post one, two message and leave b) you ignore many thread where people actually talk sense. I don't quite follow why you don't want to acknowledge our suggestions etc.For a mobile game, this forum is quite active BUT YOU DO NOT COOPERATE.

Playtesters apparently do not do their work properly. How playtesting looks like btw? WE playtest your game for you. After buying it which is not as it should be. After playing about 90 battles with skaven (I bought them in the first 2h after release) I stopped, because of the issues which I reported in numerous threads. I made 3 human warbands since and I'm enjoying them much more than skaven who (again) are unplayable in the longer run.

I WANT to spend money on this game because I see a great potential and (before skaven) I enjoyed very much. But I'd sooner quit it altogether if current state of affairs continues.
 

morjax

YouTuber & Moderator
Staff member
*Prepare to unload; morjax has opinions.*
As before, I'll preface this with the fact that I'm not part of the dev team, just an enthusiastic member of the community. All opinions are my own here, and I can't speak for Legendary's position.

One thing that I think is a backwards way to think about it is:

And I'll discourge anyone interested in buying skaven dlc or any other future releases untill you make this game balanced.
&
I WANT to spend money on this game because I see a great potential and (before skaven) I enjoyed very much. But I'd sooner quit it altogether if current state of affairs continues.
You are completely free to support the game or not based on your experience. However, it is relevant to note, I think, that this is Legendary's day jobs. At the end of the day, they must support their families, and they have expenses to pay just as you and I do. I understand that each is able to vote with their wallet as it were, but it's also imperative to remember that development happens when WE fund it. If everyone were to hypothetically go on strike from any and all purchases, it would not "straighten out" the devs and teach them a lesson, it would kill the game and stop it's development dead in it's tracks exactly where it is at today.

You don't have to buy any part of the game you don't want to. That being said, if nobody buys anything, then development stops. Period.

-

Changing subject a bit, I have a rhetorical question for you. You don't have to answer, but it's just food for thought. Sum up how much you've spent on the game thus far. Perhaps you've purchased each of the warbands, and a couple infusions of fate coins. This might total on the order of $20? now add up how much time you've put into this game. You seem like a pretty experienced user, so let's say 150 matches as an estimate. If these matches are 5 minutes apiece, This is about 12.5 hours of game time, making a cost per hour of gametime of about $1.6/hour. I'd argue this is in line with most any other sort of entertainment, and better than some. People regularly go out to a movie and spend $10 to watch a 90 minute movie in the theater ($6.66/hour).

-

Another point is that there is ONE person working on coding. There is ONE person working on art. There is ONE person working on keeping up with all social media platforms and forums posts. You mentioned that you understand it's a small team, but having spent a great deal of time with early access games and with game devs, I've personally seen how long indie game dev initiatives tend to take. Granted, Legendary are not rookies, but they are updating 1-3 alpha builds a week. From my own experience around many development teams, that's a pretty fast clip.

-

All this is not to dismiss your concerns. On the contrary, I have seen firsthand that often a game's biggest critics during development are the ones who help to facilitate the most important improvements (so long as they give constructive actionable feedback as you've done, and not just say "this game sucks the big one" as you have NOT done. Props to you there).

Remember too that if you ever get sick of this game or any other, you can always take a break and wait until the dev team has a chance to catch up with more of what's in their queue. Nobody is making you play, friend! You mentioned that you had had a lot of fun with the game until skaven came out... well mercs are still the same bands as they were before skaven, so there may still be fun there for you until skaven are improved upon. In the meantime, skaven should make a lovely target for your fearsome warriors. ;)

The devs are no doubt working on all they can. They are doing this because they love game dev, and were inspired to make something new with a beloved IP, not because they're making bank or earning massive prestige. The joy of small dev teams is that the can be so marvelously responsive to implementing the community's feedback. The downside of course is that their time, energy and attention has a limit and they must pick their battles appropriately. There are no blank checks being passed around here. They have only what they can get done in any given day. To that end, it's all too easy to forget that regardless of whatever shortcomings, the developers are people on the other end of the game. They have hopes and fears and concerns and dreams, bad days, and stressors, and chores to do at home, etc, etc. They're here making something for us to enjoy for the love of doing so.

-

All right. That's all I have for now. I encourage you to a) continue providing actionable critiques, knowing that not everything can be or will be implemented. People like you are how these games grow to meet their potential. b) take a break as needed. If the game is getting you miffed, perhaps a break would be time well spent.

Have a good day, and a good week, my friend!
 

Ewan Lamont

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, so...when?
I (and many others on this forum) pointed out many things in mechanics that make the game unplayble or unenjoyable. Nothing is changing at all. You're working on the new things while leaving old ones as they are. And they are not working well.
1) Skaven - they are still extremely weak. Entire threads how to fix them. Almost nothing changed (except giving them a few skills which solved nothing).
2) AI ignoring damage - it's been more than 1,5 months sice I reported the issue. 2 weeks ago I made a thread pointing out a potential source of the problem. No response at all.
3) Experience issue when sometimes (in my case EVERY battle now) you don't get XP for surviving.
etc.
As I understand you're working on a rat ogre etc. I don't care about rat ogre. Certainly I won't spend real money to purchase fate coins (unless he's paid for with real $ which won't be spend either) to get him since skven as a warband just suck. And I'll discourge anyone interested in buying skaven dlc or any other future releases untill you make this game balanced. What's the point of making new warband when it's design is so flwed that after a few hours of gameplay you meet a wall and don't want to play nymore?

Once, twice a week we get some mods response, how your team is small and there are so many things to do. Communication with you guys is extrememly difficult and there's no chance for meritoric discussion because a) you post one, two message and leave b) you ignore many thread where people actually talk sense. I don't quite follow why you don't want to acknowledge our suggestions etc.For a mobile game, this forum is quite active BUT YOU DO NOT COOPERATE.

Playtesters apparently do not do their work properly. How playtesting looks like btw? WE playtest your game for you. After buying it which is not as it should be. After playing about 90 battles with skaven (I bought them in the first 2h after release) I stopped, because of the issues which I reported in numerous threads. I made 3 human warbands since and I'm enjoying them much more than skaven who (again) are unplayable in the longer run.

I WANT to spend money on this game because I see a great potential and (before skaven) I enjoyed very much. But I'd sooner quit it altogether if current state of affairs continues.
We have a period of holidays and illness at the moment so forum and facebook replies are a bit lower in velocity at the moment. There is a release due this Thursday which along side lots of much smaller changes containing a brand new battle environment and giant rats for skaven making them much more powerful. From then on we should be back to fortnightly releases. We value all feedback but may not agree with all of it we have the advantage of seeing all the data from the game metrics and need to be certain about making a change that vears away from what worked in the test period. From memory the only changes you suggested were getting vermin kin to start with advanced weapons and adding in heavier armour... There is a lot of feedback about the skaven being too powerful we can't build a game round one persons PoV but if a lot say the same thing them we will make changes. There is no AI ignoring damage bug that we can detect and replicate, the person you were playing against in the game you reported had the quick recovery skill. You only get XP for surviving if you play against a warband of a similar rating. You must have advanced so much that most warbands you play are quite a bit weaker. Please bare with us, game coding is glacial and we have a lot to work on. Right now our biggest issue is actually reducing load times for Android users.
 
Ok, thanks for replies...
BUT
1) Skaven are powerfull - where's this feedback coming from? On this forum everyone seems to agree they are too weak unfortunately.
2)My suggestions were: weapons that add to S + crit/parry/armour reduction, armour, giving verminkin advanced weapon training and starting with 0xp instead of 3
3) AI ignoring damage - Yes, I am aware of that, in other thread I wrote that this recovery skill makes your warrior ignore up to/about 10dmg before healthbar starts going down. It goes both for AI and for the player controlled warbands.
4) Battles are still difficult, and some warbands I fight are clearly superior. I doubt I reached the ultimate warband strenght.
 

DTay88

Corporal
I have not reached the latest stages with my skaven but I find them pretty powerful. Anytime I run into a ranged warband I hide my guys to get the enemy advancing and then skip all my guys actions for a turn once the enemy advanced close enough giving me effectively two turns to close ranks and reach combat. The strength skill additions were great but the change to the skip turn function really helped skaven. With the highest initiative I can ensure two rounds of combat against heavily armored opponents before they get to react. Really pleased with the changes that have been made already and can't wait (but do understand I must) for more
 
Focus on one problem at a time. Skaven are too much of a niche right now. They MUST use Speed, stealth, and special weapons, the Weeping Blades and Fighting Claws. Their are already counters to that. High initiative in combination with Perception deals with stealth. High Defense and Parry values reduce all/low strength melee attacks respectively to 0 and of course you have have high hit points to make it all sissy slaps. Fearsome is a simple but effective counter as it only takes 1 upgrade point to purchase compared to the skaven counter being heavy investment into Leadership at the expense of everything else required to win.

I share Marquand's frustration. Many of the players right now are basically unpaid testers trying to help build the final version of Mordheim Warband Skirmish and later still expansions. When none of the developers respond for long periods it does not build any confidence and any time the developers explain they were on vacation or that they are understaffed it exacerbates the situation.

I really care for your success and hope for the best Staff of Legendary-Games.
 

Ewan Lamont

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, thanks for replies...
BUT
1) Skaven are powerfull - where's this feedback coming from? On this forum everyone seems to agree they are too weak unfortunately.
2)My suggestions were: weapons that add to S + crit/parry/armour reduction, armour, giving verminkin advanced weapon training and starting with 0xp instead of 3
3) AI ignoring damage - Yes, I am aware of that, in other thread I wrote that this recovery skill makes your warrior ignore up to/about 10dmg before healthbar starts going down. It goes both for AI and for the player controlled warbands.
4) Battles are still difficult, and some warbands I fight are clearly superior. I doubt I reached the ultimate warband strenght.
The General consensus among the testers and the results stat metrics we are seeing is they are slightly more powerful. The hide and ambush double tap strategy is a furry storm of death coupled with them being able to out run and out shoot from the shadows anything wearing steel and we just about to give them a whole horde of ratty pets tomorrow and a giant multi attacking lawnmower the week after . We are looking at making the burgers and middenheimers a bit better to counterbalance. It is something we are monitoring constantly and if there is a imbalance in the win loss ratios of a warband or a high demand from the community we will make a change. If there is a battle where you think there is an AI bug or an XP award bug DM us or report the battle time and who with on the forum and we can take a look.
 
*Prepare to unload; morjax has opinions.*
As before, I'll preface this with the fact that I'm not part of the dev team, just an enthusiastic member of the community. All opinions are my own here, and I can't speak for Legendary's position.

One thing that I think is a backwards way to think about it is:


&


You are completely free to support the game or not based on your experience. However, it is relevant to note, I think, that this is Legendary's day jobs. At the end of the day, they must support their families, and they have expenses to pay just as you and I do. I understand that each is able to vote with their wallet as it were, but it's also imperative to remember that development happens when WE fund it. If everyone were to hypothetically go on strike from any and all purchases, it would not "straighten out" the devs and teach them a lesson, it would kill the game and stop it's development dead in it's tracks exactly where it is at today.

You don't have to buy any part of the game you don't want to. That being said, if nobody buys anything, then development stops. Period.

-

Changing subject a bit, I have a rhetorical question for you. You don't have to answer, but it's just food for thought. Sum up how much you've spent on the game thus far. Perhaps you've purchased each of the warbands, and a couple infusions of fate coins. This might total on the order of $20? now add up how much time you've put into this game. You seem like a pretty experienced user, so let's say 150 matches as an estimate. If these matches are 5 minutes apiece, This is about 12.5 hours of game time, making a cost per hour of gametime of about $1.6/hour. I'd argue this is in line with most any other sort of entertainment, and better than some. People regularly go out to a movie and spend $10 to watch a 90 minute movie in the theater ($6.66/hour).

-

Another point is that there is ONE person working on coding. There is ONE person working on art. There is ONE person working on keeping up with all social media platforms and forums posts. You mentioned that you understand it's a small team, but having spent a great deal of time with early access games and with game devs, I've personally seen how long indie game dev initiatives tend to take. Granted, Legendary are not rookies, but they are updating 1-3 alpha builds a week. From my own experience around many development teams, that's a pretty fast clip.

-

All this is not to dismiss your concerns. On the contrary, I have seen firsthand that often a game's biggest critics during development are the ones who help to facilitate the most important improvements (so long as they give constructive actionable feedback as you've done, and not just say "this game sucks the big one" as you have NOT done. Props to you there).

Remember too that if you ever get sick of this game or any other, you can always take a break and wait until the dev team has a chance to catch up with more of what's in their queue. Nobody is making you play, friend! You mentioned that you had had a lot of fun with the game until skaven came out... well mercs are still the same bands as they were before skaven, so there may still be fun there for you until skaven are improved upon. In the meantime, skaven should make a lovely target for your fearsome warriors. ;)

The devs are no doubt working on all they can. They are doing this because they love game dev, and were inspired to make something new with a beloved IP, not because they're making bank or earning massive prestige. The joy of small dev teams is that the can be so marvelously responsive to implementing the community's feedback. The downside of course is that their time, energy and attention has a limit and they must pick their battles appropriately. There are no blank checks being passed around here. They have only what they can get done in any given day. To that end, it's all too easy to forget that regardless of whatever shortcomings, the developers are people on the other end of the game. They have hopes and fears and concerns and dreams, bad days, and stressors, and chores to do at home, etc, etc. They're here making something for us to enjoy for the love of doing so.

-

All right. That's all I have for now. I encourage you to a) continue providing actionable critiques, knowing that not everything can be or will be implemented. People like you are how these games grow to meet their potential. b) take a break as needed. If the game is getting you miffed, perhaps a break would be time well spent.

Have a good day, and a good week, my friend!


Morjax.... You are now officially one of my very good friends. (FEEL HONORED!) *insert Zim voice*

I am part of a small indy development outfit also and I only wish a quarter of the people that play our games understood this concept. We can only do so much. There are only so many hours in the day. We all have our own lives and families we have to take care of, want to spend time with, and want to watch grow up. Just because devs don't reply to forum threads doesn't mean they aren't listening. And just because a change isn't implemented within a week of your suggestion/complaining doesn't mean it won't happen. When your resources are EXTREMELY limited, as is with most indy devs... Prioritization because a massive issue, especially when feature creep comes in as more and more suggestions pile up. Hell, half the suggestions people give, I'd bet a good number of them are at the -VERY LEAST- brought up in discussion of "hey what about if"... There's a bigger picture to all suggestions and only the devs know how well it's going to fit into the existing framework.

But when it's all said and done... there's only so many hours in the day. there's only so much work one person can accomplish. And discouraging other players from spending money on this game (and indirectly further development) is the ABSOLUTE number one way to ruin the game for everybody that still enjoys it... and for those that haven't had the chance to yet. Too many people nowdays are worried about their opinions being heard that they don't sit back and realize the people hearing the opinions have fifty other ones coming at them at the same time. That's enough overload to cause a mental breakdown even before you've opened visual studio for the day. And sometimes it gets to the point where people complaining and threatening to tell people to not buy the game... makes it even more to the point of... why bother if people aren't going to do anything but complain about the things you spend your blood, sweat, and tears on creating.

And please take this with as much realism with which it's intended... A developer is -not-... (I repeat, NOT) going to work until 10-11 at night... MISSING their daughter's dance recital, or their son's baseball game... To appease someone that threatens to discourage others from playing their game. We have families, we have real lives, we have friends that we often neglect because we ARE working all hours of the night trying to make the game better for everyone. So when you sit there and threaten to discourage other from spending money on this game... You're shooting yourself in the foot and ruining any chance of seeing your own suggestions and requests from ever being implemented, because you told 20 other people not to play the game... When those 20 people could have brought more money to the development fund.
 

DTay88

Corporal
Marienburg I actually have enjoyed because being able to get more looks at rare equipment means more chances to grab it when it's cheap, but it would be really cool to have some kind of unique hired sword for them...dwarf, elf, assassin, to mean marksman...?

Also what about wolf priest with pet wolf for middenheim? Loved that addition to the tabletop game
 
Ooh nice segue into a different thread.

Marienburg in the original Tabletop had a short-term advantage, 20% more starting money and a long term advantage, +2 to all rarity checks. Neither one made you combat performance any better.

Reikland got screwed in Warband Skirmish. In Tabletop Mordheim Reikland Marksmen received a no-cost and flat +16.5% ballistic skill increase which can stack. Here they get a ballistic skill upgrade of about 5% by having Ballistic SKill Increase 1 already bought and paid for.

Middenheim got a nerf and a buff. The captain starts with a couple free upgrades, one to Strength and one to Wounds. They do look the best with capes.
 

JustinS

Private
The new Giant Rats are a perfect example of how to fix the game.

What do they do? What are their stats?

This appalling lack of information on basic mechanics is continuing in the release of the Giants Rats.
Please, start adding descriptions of stats and mechanics. This will also help us identify bugs for you. If we are expecting a certain outcome based on rules as written, and the outcome is something else, then we can report it as such.

I recently found a bug in that to earn the Flail parentheses bonus I had to 2/2 UNARMED skill. Only found it by experimenting with my EXP advancements, for which my patience is wearing very thin considering I'm paying a premium for this game. Bugs are part of software, I get it. But it's discouraging me from paying for this game.
 
Increase in information is an important step.

How do you calculate chances to hit? What are the penalties to hit? Why is damage random? Does armor make you harder to hit, lower damage rolls against you, or possibly negate damage altogether?

How do you get the "survive" Experience after battle? Is there any way to get more? How do you know if youve gotten experience before the end of matches?

How does Fear work? How can I prevent Fear completely?

What exactly are SKaven? Who are the Reiklanders, Marienburgers, and Middheimers?
 

Ewan Lamont

Administrator
Staff member
Fair cop JustinS. Rat stats should be part of the creature description we are working on the best way of showing this and even I have a flail armed skaven called Glenis on alpha that I should have noticed was not doing the expected damage. Really sorry about that. Both will be sorted in next Thursday's build.

There are descriptions of all the stats on the stat bar in camp, background stories to each faction in the faction screen and a pop up on fear the first time a fear leadership check is made. All detailed questions on metrics are handled directly in the forum (there is a sticky in open). If there is a better way of wording the information on a 2 by 4 inch screen we are all ears :)
 
My response may have been way off topic, but I was merely adding to morjax's response. which -was- on topic, so I don't think it was too much of a tangent.

One thing is for sure when it comes to mobile platforms. Screen real estate space... is a MAJOR premium. Trying to put too much of an explanation on a screen will clutter the screen and make the overall interface 'dirty' if that makes sense. And even still, there's only so much you can display in a tooltip without appearing like you're pushing a book through a pop up window. I think for the detailed explanations that people are still needing for certain things, I think A: the forum is the best place to start with a detailed catalog of all the explanations. B: Those explanations and the ones already available can be compiled into a full guide on the wiki page. C: It could be provided in some type of in-game rulebook or game glossary that explains the concepts and formulas for everything. Almost like a Codex in a sense.
 
I know that with all the computing resources used in matches to render all the rubble having too much onscreen, especially things like the new over-the-shoulder view when shooting. Visually I like that but it does use up for resources especially when there are a large number of characters onscreen. I would rather make that a toggle feature and instead keep the isometric perspective to save resources. Compare it to someone trying to make SKyrim on a system better suited for Starcraft.

Following that some possible toggle features would be information on character sight range, weapon range, and leadership range. Im basing that on mode tactical RPGs from the past 20+ years like Xcom and Jagged Alliance.

Toggle features to increase or decrease the amount of information in and out are very lacking in the settings menu. When I look in "other settings" all these is are the Credits. Im still trying to find out how to zoom out or rotate the camera reliably. Not like there are instructions for it.
 
Following that some possible toggle features would be information on character sight range, weapon range, and leadership range. Im basing that on mode tactical RPGs from the past 20+ years like Xcom and Jagged Alliance.
I actually thought about that the other day when I was playing. I think they best option would be some sort of toggle overlay that acts on a grid.
 
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