Discussion in 'News and Announcements' started by Prabdeep Bazaz, Apr 23, 2020.
Possessed have +10 WS after possession
Hmm...it's very debatable as to who is the best melee warband. Melee involves many factors beyond WS, being unstunnable, the ability to get the alpha strike (either by movement, speed skills or spells) and ability to retain enemies in melee. The problem with dwarves is that they lack the latter 2. Against a good non-dwarf opponent, they will most likely get struck first in melee so need to survive that initial hit. Once in melee, opponents can easily move out without your dwarf being able to get free strikes or chasing them down due to lack of speed skills and 3/3 movement (this is the bane of slayers). Other dwarves can at least shoot those who move away.
Don't get me wrong, Dwarves are still good melee warriors. I'd say they are probably the most missile resistant melee fighters as a whole, but consider other melee competitors (in no particular order):
1) Vampire: Arguably the most powerful, single warrior. They also have 45 WS to start plus they have higher Initiative, W, and speed skills. What they lack in shooting they make up for in high speed 7/7 plus ability to Hide. Now if running a full warband, a good player could use the other fodder warriors to position the vampire to strike at the best targets.
2) Skaven: They have 10 less WS, but high initiative and abilities to strike first, ability to get many attacks (those who play TT warhammer know the power of the bucket of dice!), ability to reduce armor makes them a strike first, strike hard melee warband. I know they also have the option of warplock pistols and throwing stars.
3) Middenheimers: I'm putting this out there because of my experience with my main warband, especially adding elves. The addition of elves IMO have made these guys the best mercenary warband. Having 2 or more elves will force opponents to reconcile a ranged threat allowing the other warriors to get into ideal melee positions. Middenheim warriors have access to Combat, Strength and Speed trees so armed with comet mauls, they have a good chance of killing any opponent (save a vampire) in one round if they get the charge (this change increases significantly if you use mad cap and crimson shade with them). Plus there is also the factor of a wizard captain with a flight spell who should always get the alpha strike.
4) Possessed warbands can be a good melee warband too if you get the right mutations such as hoofs. Possessed warriors have the +10 WS but lack the armor penetration against gromil and shield opponents. But with fast movement they can engage shooters quickly. Beastmen armed with comet mauls do the damage agains the armor. Remember beastment can also get 2 mutations so if you get the right ones, they can be very good. Plus the magister is really equivalent to the merceny wizard captain, perhaps more so if you get him the right mutations.
I mainly agree with Shangular. However I put dwarves as the weakest army for melee. Undead, sisters and possessed are all melee only bands with far scarier models than dwarves (vampire, matriarch, magister + beastmen) Witch hunter and skaven are mixed warbands with ranged and melee. However their melee sides are insane as well, the warrior priest is unkillable and hits way harder than any dwarf while skaven alpha strikes and armor reduction is crazy. So the question of are they better than mercs comes up. I would happily trade 10 ws for +1 M... but mercs also get lesser magic captains and speed skills. +15 defense is really only good vs shooting and M4 + speed skills protects you from shooting better than 15 defense. Dwarves should stick to their guns and leave the melee for the ogres.
I have a pure melee dwarf warband rated 3444 and it’s safe to say that it’s my favorite melee warband. I'll withhold judgment though until I actually get my guys to endgame. The thing to remember about endgame, btw, is that it is relative less to peoples opinions and far more to the actual end of leveling for its constituent units. For melee focused Treasure Hunters that use a halfling, the endgame of its melee clansmen starts in their 30’s. Once there, the only two skills they have left are leadership (which they don’t really need) and initiative. While most of my dwarves are between 28 and 34, two are still quite young at only 15 and, once I max out initiative, I'll probably retire my halfling and add another slayer. In other words, I've got a while yet.
What I can say with certainty now is that proper use of the dwarven shield wall is one of the single best group tactics in the game. You can use it to terrorize opponents, make squishy units indestructible (and slayers awesome), trap fast enemies in hybrid cages of terrain and gromril clad death, funnel attackers like lambs to the slaughter , and herd them like cattle. Moving in formations, they're more like a single dwarf distributed among five or more moving parts. Other warbands can do some of this with a shield wall of their own but none do it as effectively. While I don't know yet if this translates into the best melee warband type by endgame, I do know that it's damn fun.
Tbh I'm just using the dwarfs and warlocks to farm shards for fate, building a team right now
I love the shield wall. I've used something like it in TT, but in mobile, where armor is a much larger factor, the Wall is terrifying. A variation of that formation is the wedge, putting your toughest fighter (in terms of WS and Def) at the point of the group. In bird's eye it looks like an arrowhead, and works best with 5 or more models. You can use it to keep shooters close to the action while protecting them, just like the straight line formation.
My experience with my dwarves is quite different. With great grudge in particular, combined with high WS, my dwarves are making short work of ogres, skaven, and most vampires. Add in cause fear and most skaven charges are broken, at least at my dwarves' wb rating (2000+). We'll see what the endgame builds have in store, but if dwarves aren't kicking tail in melee, you're not using 'em right. Just my opinion.
Yeah, although I think dwarves are good at melee, I don't seem them as a melee oriented warband such as Skaven, Sisters, or Undead. I see them somewhat more balanced in that they can fight in close combat if needed, but they can shoot blackpowder weapons really well so the key is to get the enemy into a shooting zone and then forcing them to come to you (aside from the Treasure Hunt scenario that could end up with you trying to chase down and shoot the other guy if you don't get the chest first).
Separate names with a comma.