Future warbands

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Marquand, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I have two questions:
    1) Next warband? :)

    2) What about warband composition?
    In tebletop Mercenaries got henchmen and heroes who were very much alike and decision for Captain/warrior/marksmen was understandable and good.

    Skaven were quite unlucky since they've lost Black Skaven, Eshin Sorcerer and Rat Ogre (but as I understand it they're future hired swords DLC).

    Now, what about possessed, undead and Witch Hunters? I'm not mentioning Sisters of Sigmar because (except augur) they are in the same boat as Mercenaries. Humans with slightly different stats, nothing too complicated in execution.
    Possessed, Undead and Witch Hunters on the other hand have way too much henchmen/heroes diversity to implement them the same way as Mercenaries or Skaven.

    Possessed: Magister, Possessed, Mutants, Darksouls, Brethren, Beastmen. They all differ in very significant ways: Magister is a Magician, Possessed are (literally) monsters with no option for any wargear, Mutatnts are equal to warriors but with mutations, Brethren are just human warriors, Darksouls are immune to psychology stronger humans and Beastmen are... beastmen.

    Undead: Vampire, dregs, Necromancer, zombies, ghouls and dire wolves. Vampire is obviously a super melee monster, dregs are equal to human warriors, necromancer is a magician, ghouls are tougher humans with NO option for equipment at all, while zombies are trash as are dire wolves. Undead warband aside from warband composition makes my wonder how would you solve problem with very weak henchmen.

    Witch hunters: Witch Hunters Captain, Witch hunters, WP of Sigmar, zealots, flagellants and wrhounds. Aside from WH Captain as a leader I can't see this warband with flagellants (no armour and in fact ultra limited wargear options) and zealots (trash) only.


    Can we suggest warband compostion, skills and equipment for future warbands?
  2. Ewan Lamont
    Administrator

    Message Count:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Feel free to suggest anything. Dev work and testing is slow going so bare with us it could be a while before the next warband is released. There are rats, bigger rats, magic and multiplayer all scheduled before the next warband which perhaps may appear just before halloween...

    We are trying to fit as much as possible into the RPG template where you start with the basic warband member and get the special troops via events and training. Assassins and Black Skaven are just Verminkin with extra skills and stats after all.
  3. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Black Skaven - I meant it from tabletop-balance perspective :) These two heroes were the best in the warband and one the best (starting) fighters in the game. Mercenaries just got champions with +1WS, black skaven on the other hand had +1M,WS,S,I,LD compared to vermins. Just it.

    Can you make for example warriors that can be taken in limited numbers? That woud help immensely with these 3 warbands.
  4. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Well I for one really want chaos in a Tzeentchian form, but I know what i want and i think anything but chaos warriors and things like that may be harder to model..
  5. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Possessed were not alligned to any of the 4 Greater Powers.
  6. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Im not super up on my fantasy lore as im mostly a 40k guy I wish the was a kill team mobile app.
    Chaggins likes this.
  7. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Other warbands need to have their "heroes" as regular units, not paid-by-cash Premium. Human Mercenaries that we have now are defined not by skills or special abilities(at least at firs) but by their equipment options. They can pick heavy armor, different melee weapons, firearms.

    Other warbands do not have those equipment options. They are instead defined by key units.

    1 Chaos Cult/Possessed warbands need the Magisiter, Mutants, and Possessed. The Magister would have a new skill tree to pick up spells. Mutants could easily be regular units with a new skill tree, Blessing of the Shadowlord. Possessed could be premium units as upgraded mutants. Beastmen might be premium. Theyre expensive but also very tough with twice as many Wounds as humans.

    2 Undead, definitely a problem. Their henchmen units are fodder and only the Ghouls gain experience. That wouldnt work well as anything they have a Human can gain, such as Fearsome. The Vampire would need to be quite powerful, and Dregs would be common units. I dont know how the Necromancer would fit in, but hopefully not as a Premium Unit.

    3 Witch Hunters, zealots would just be no. Theyre terrible and have no redeeming traits. Flagellants could be useful, but their lack of equipment would be a major issue. They are (somehow as starving pilgrims) at the human peak. At the minimum they would need a upgraded Wounds Increase, like 4-8 per upgrade so they end up with 20-30 wounds but no armor. Warrior Priest would be nice to have armor, weapons, and spells, but probably premium. If you made a Witch Hunter(hero) the basic unit, that would be interesting as they all have Academic skills, so Wyrdstone Hunter for everyone?
    ----------------
    Magic is very important for the future. It would be somewhat hard to program it because its so random in the original Mordheim. Skipping spells failure tests for Attack spells could be fair as most of them were short-ranged, but some of the more powerful spells (whole enemy team tests for Fear, example) would be hard to justify just skipping any checks.
  8. Eizo Private

    Message Count:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I'd like to see giant rats/rat packs, like in the tabletop game. Cheap cannon fodder, to lock down key enemies, that noone cares about that much if they die.
  9. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Giant rats are part of the original mordheim skaven warband, but they weren really cannon fodder. They were cheap and didnt gain experience but they still counted for your warband running away.

    Cannon Fodder and Any characters whatsoever that cannot gain experience in Mordheim wouldnt work in Warband SKirmish. That removes a a great deal of options. Undead warbands are mostly made up characters that cant learn.
  10. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Yes,this game is about quality not quantity. Crap units are only easy xp and there's NO such thing as cannon fodder here because you can ignore it by walking out of combat or choosing different target. People should understand that. What skaven should get is better weapons and armour. Nothing else matters. And if there will be a rat ogre character I wonder how will IT look like stat wise since T was removed, no armour no xp, low WS and even 70S units struggle versus high def.
  11. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    With the changes from adapting Mordheim and removing key factors like Toughness some characters just wont work. Try making Rat Ogres. They would need something like 40 wounds and 80 strength to show how powerful they are.

    Other characters like Beastmen, Flagellants, are tough races like Dwarves and Orcs will also have to have ramped up wounds to be way higher than what humans and skaven can have. Then you would need even more to keep them effective without little to no armor available. So basically double wounds.
  12. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Did orbs and goblins or elves exist in mordheim originally? If so they could be fun too
  13. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Orcs & Goblins, Dwarf Treasure Hunters , and Elf Shadow Warriors were released as official warbands later.

    Orcs and Goblins wouldnt work here as theyre another mob warband with pseudo-stupidity called Animosity to balance out their numerical advantage.

    Dwarves are experience and slow but also much tougher than anyone else. They basically the opposite of Skaven. I think they would fit in well as theyre all about toughness and quality equipment. Hopefully they would have a discount on Gromril(they make it after all), or better yet Legendary-Games stops price inflation, eh?

    Elves are fragile and expensive but also fast and highly skilled. Imagine an entire warband with Elf Longbows and ithilmar armor.
  14. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    None of this warbands would work here. Orks are too complicated (lol), dwarfs would be totally broken (take mercenries and make them more heavily armoured, skilled and hard hitting) and elves do not belong in Mordheim except for the ranger.

    Warband with elf bows and ithilmar armour? I counter that with long rifles and full plate lol.

    Besides iirc they said that only core rulebook warbands will be made. And none of this warbands (though o&g and dwarves are official) is from the rulebook.
  15. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    And that is the problem. What works in Mordheim doesnt work in Warband Skirmish. Every subsequent warband will basically be compared to Reiklanders with their full plate armor and long rifles, which most warbands cant have. Ask people at high tiers if they can play using Longbows instead of Long Rifles or armor. Thats basically Warband SKirmish

    The real strength of most warbands just wouldnt compensate. Dwarves would work the best. Skaven are pretty bad. Undead and Orcs & Goblins would be bad. Witch Hunters, Sisters of SIgmar, and Cult of Possessed would be garbage without their unique units, which would probably all be premium.

    I think this game may be too broken to really do anything without angering people. Any major changes will ruin current player warbands but make future ones viable. For example You would need things like Knock down the price of high level equipment down to affordable levels, and raise the chance to hit targets to reasonable levels without major upgrades.

    -----------
    #1 equipment. Humans are almost the most heavily equipped warbands. Dwarves tend to be better equipped just because they have fewer character so money is consolidated into fewer characters. Other warbands are further down on technology with slings, bows, clubs, and light armor, which are nearly useless in Warband Skirmish.

    #2 economy. In Mordheim wyrdstone is worth roughly double. Warband SKirmish starts out with reasonable costing items but then the costs inflates to several times the cost of what items would be in Mordheim. Gromril armor costs 9-10 times as much!

    #3 new recruits/replacements/warband size. Mordheim characters dont increase in cost. Youre expected to lose and replace characters, not keep them for 100+ battles. The size of warbands is also much larger, ranging from 12-20 maximum.

    #4 missing minimum accuracy. In Mordheim hitting on a 50% chance in melee was almost guaranteed as you had to have double the Weapon Skill to inflict a penalty of 16%. If you had higher than your enemies you would have a higher chance...by 16%. Hitting with ranged attacks went from 84% maximum to 16% minimum.\

    #5 Faction specific units: They are the key to making different factions unique and in many cases are what are supposed to compensate for lack of heavy equipment that Human Mercenaries rely on. Im afraid most would be premium-only, defeating the purpose of most factions.

    Overall most Mordheim warbands are reliant on boring but practical units with cheap equipment and in numbers and then using a small number of specific high power units. All the changes Legendary-Games has made are opposed to that.

    To make any future warbands work you would have to remove the unique features and just give them all the same equipment. Faction specific "power" units would be premium.
  16. Ewan Lamont
    Administrator

    Message Count:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Interesting discussion we will be sticking to the 8 warbands in the Mordheim book for now. FYI toughness has not been removed it and armour have been merged into def just like in WFRP. Virtually every creature in Mordheim had a T of 3 so it was pointless fixating on it when translating the table top stats to the virtual game.
  17. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I guess the real question for me is when do we get the cult of the posessed then.
    Chaggins likes this.
  18. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Not all of them. Toughness was an important attribute as it meant some attacks wouldnt do ANY damage even if they hit you. Hitting characters was easy. Getting past toughness was harder. Wounds are very different as in Warhammer those were extra lives. Here its just hit points.

    the removal of Toughness and the change to Wounds makes many possible characters questionable. In most cases said characters would need 50-100% more Wounds to be functionally equivalent. Chaos has Beastmen as elite warband members are they are very tough, roughly 3 times as much as a human, as are Chaos Possessed monsters-heroes.

    How would you choose to represent that?
  19. Ewan Lamont
    Administrator

    Message Count:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    46
    With a higher starting Def Just like WFRP
  20. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    But what "higher starting def" would give to the rat ogre who just cannot take equipment?
    Also will rat ogre be able to gain experience?

    How does calculting "T to def" works?

    I'm not sure if additional def would represent T5 good. In tabletop it meant that most common S3 attack wounded only on 6 with no critical hits possible. And you had 3 wounds. Monstrous critical hits like 6,8,10 or even 14 are not very uncommon here, super high armour or not...

Share This Page