Future warbands

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Marquand, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    The Rat Ogre would be a nightmare to program because its at odds with Warband Skirmish's themes.

    Rat Ogres have animal intelligence, so their experience is fixed with no upgrades possible. They have no equipment by default or as options.

    By default they are roughly 9 times as tough as a human and far more than a human could ever possibly reach. If they could upgrade them they would need more wounds/hit points than anyone by 2-3 times as much. Defense would need to be quite high from both trying to translate Toughness and from a practical standpoint as they have no armor. Speed would be 6/6. Attacks would be 3 by default.

    It would be really easy to makea balancing mistake by program a human Freelancer stronger and tougher because of equipment. Basically the Rat Ogre a boss character that is supposed to be better than any human, skaven, or anything short of another big monster.
  2. Ewan Lamont
    Administrator

    Message Count:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    46
    We'll see in a few weeks :) A lot of the combat design metrics are heavily influenced by WFRP 2nd edition, especially the armour/toughness it worked really nicely. If you are a big warhammer fan I really recommend getting a copy.
  3. JustinS Private

    Message Count:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Exactly. The system as built currently will struggle reflect low WS, but high T entities. The "to-hit" formula, while seeming to produce a wide variety of outcomes based on many inputs from both characters involved, executes in a simpler binary outcome.
  4. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I uh dont get that. The changes to weapon skill in Warband SKirmish means that low weapon skill but multiple attacks isnt possible. Weapon skill in Mordheim wasnt that important because of minimums. Rat Ogres has 3 attacks and 50 strength(strength that high is impossible for a human to have by the way), but only 30 weapon skill and still hit any non-commanders on a 50% chance.

    In Mordheim, Warhammer, and Warhammer 40000 you could actually have weapons that pierced armor very well but be low strength. Here Maces are the closest thing to Armor-piercing as they put a cap on maximum Defense rates. some ranged weapons have a flat -15% defense which is almost useless when most people with armor will have defense rates 40-70%

    Id actually like to see a skill that adds an extra -15% to Armor saves. I heard Skaven have that, but I dont have skaven.
  5. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Are you refering to Perfect killer?
    An assassin Adept always has an etra -15 defence modifier to any attacks
    Dependencies
    WS 40
    BS 40
  6. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Heres an idea, Perfect Killer for humans?
  7. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    or some adaptation remember humans don't have assassins. Also its icon is a rat skull. Do you feel that Skaven shouldn't have tail attack.
  8. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Okay then fix armor so its more balanced against supposedly, but not really, anti-armor weapons. Its still an ongoing issue that freelancers are broken especially in the early game(and yes they do appear then despite warband rating theoretically banning them ) just because 45%+ armor rates mean only 55% or less attacks that manage to actually hit will do any damage whatsoever with low hit chances and low damage.

    See it keeps coming up I like how Legendary-Games is TRYING to make a good game but its still the fundamental flaws that are the elephant in the room and Im bringing them up. Fear wasnt even brought up by people until Skaven came out and they are particularly weak against it.

    Actually Ill turn this into a positive. Legendary-Games I know there are problems with this game and I hope you acknowledge them, but keep trying. Its almost impossible to get something right the first time.
    ===========
    I think Ill already said it here, but future Warbands will all have to scale up roughly equal to established ones. That means Hochland Long Rifles, Full Plate Armor, and Gromril weapons. If you exclude equipment then youll have to exaggerate whatever strengths they have.

    Sisters of Battle, their strength is that they are the only wholly Good Warband, they have Slings, and their leader is a magical CLeric of Sigmar. If you releaser them right now they would be practically useless as there is no magic, Slings suck, and being Good has no real benefits without a story.

    Cult of the Possessed, relies on special monsters, which arent in the game yet and will need a great deal of testing to balance them out with the massive differences in equipment between Mordheim and Warband Skirmish. Right now they would just be shot to death. Also their leader uses magic.

    Vampire Warband mostly made up of characters that dont gain experience!Best i can say is that they make subhumanoid Dregs into the main members and cult out zombies and dire wolves.

    Witch Hunters, Zealots are the worst henchmen in core Mordheim and would be even more so unless they got buffed. Also a warband that uses Magic.

    Those are mostly melee warbands so they would have the same problems as Middheim does now.
  9. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    So how would you propose fixing or adapting these warbands, im sure it would be great how a faction by faction breakdown with good implementation would be. I agree magic is lacking at the moment but that's another ball of wax but could maybe would like consumables.
  10. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    You already read the problems that need to be worked on. The Adaptational changes need to be balanced out.

    In Mordheim characters had the option for higher tier weapons and but they were impractical as you also had the option of purchasing more members so which was better 50 gold for armor that gives a 33% chance of ignoring damage or 2 skaven clanrats with a dual clubs and a sling that has a 50% chance of KOing an enemy on every hit?

    In Warband Skirmish things are organized in tiers. The Ranged weapons at least exist in Mordheim, while the melee characters are all made up from some basic rules about "clubs, swords, great weapons" and so on and then making 1-5 tiers of those weapons. The Ranged weapons in Mordheim each have ups and down.s Bows could move-and-fire, very important when Henchmen(who made up about 66% of warband) couldnt ever learn Nimble. Crossbows had strength 4 meaning both a higher chance to KO an enemy but also meant it pierced armor. Handguns were RARE weapons only a certain small percentage of characters in the warband could use them and skills were rarer so a Handgun using Hunter to fire 1 shot per turn or a Crossbow firing 2 shots every turn? Hochland Long Rifle...haha no. You could buy 8 characters with no equipment for that much, and it only ever fired ONE shot. No tiers, just an increasing cost of a cool weapon being worse than the last.

    In Mordheim Humans Mercenaries are the only warband that can actually use most ranged weapons. Everyone else has Bows and Slings, which are better than what they are in Warband SKirmish but Reikland Marksmen could have a 84% accuracy with 50-33% chance of one-shotting characters at a range of 30.

    All following warbands well they dont have options for guns, armor, and in some case melee weapons. Theyre about having special abilties, higher statistics, or filling a Niche like being a shooter in a melee warband sometimes in a big varied warband. Translate that here and most warbands would be melee-only, so the only option would be to be extremely resilient. What if they dont have weapons or both?


    I dont know. Is every warband going to be 1 leader and 6 identical troopers? Cut out all the variety of different character types? Break things up so everyone has the same gear of Human Mercenaries?
    ------------------------------
    Sisters of Sigmar dont have much in the way of ranged weapons or variety of henchmen. They do have several heroes(that would likely be cut) including the Augur that could have basically double-chances on every action. Their Leader is a priestess that can have heavy armor and Great Hammer(Battle Nun, yay). They do have some unique skills and weapons. the Steel Whip was a confusing but very powerful melee weapon with a reach of 4 and prevented parrying. Gameplay wise they would have to rely on that. They would be a better version of Middenheim.

    For me the Cult of the Possessed are both the high point and most likely what will kill this game if done wrong. They have the 1 sorcerer Magister, 2 Possessed, who are humans inhabited by daemons, 3 Dark Souls that had daemons by then exorcised, 4 Beastmen, mutant goat-men, 5 Mutants which a variety of possible mutations, 6 Brethren, cultists that make up the majority. I think most of that would be cut and/or made into Premium cash items I wouldnt see. Mutants might have a special skill tree to unlock Mutations or Gifts of the SHadowlord(free gromril armor?)

    Witch Hunters well their strengths of mainly based on the skills trees of their heroes(they can learn to use Hochland Long Rifles) and Flaggellants. Flaggellants are somehow superhuman starving pilgrims that use big weapons to wreck you day, and can never use armor or ranged weapons. You would need to DOUBLE the Wounds of Flagellants at the bare minimum to keep them close to Freelancers in terms of durability. Overall I think they would suck as they would just come off as Human Mercenaries, but focused more on the Witch Hunters(soldiers) being Marksmen and the Flaggelants as Warriors that can never change.

    Vampire/Undead would have to be changed heavily to fit in Warband Skirmish. To start off troopers with the ability to gain experience, so make Dregs the troopers. The majority of the original warband either cant take equipment(ghouls) or gain experience(zombies, undead wolves) so right there 66% of the warband, poof. The leader is a Vampire which is superhuman but because all characters can grow much higher than in Mordheim the Vampire would have to START with weapon skill 50, strength 50, 10+ wounds, 3 attacks and then grow into something like weapon skill 100, strength 70, wounds 30 and 6 attacks. You would start out with a Vampire and slowly (or maybe not at all) gain Dreg minions.
  11. Marquand Major

    Message Count:
    234
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Only thing possible for the Undead to not follow Mordhiem "without vampire your warband is just garbage" is to intoduce (for example) 2 vampire thralls just like in CotD. No other way around it. Undead warband was perhaps the weakest warband in original Mordheim. It shouldn't be repaeted just for sake of blindly following flawed original.

    Still with defence system as there is, no matter how many wounds you get you're just a cannon fodder without good (emphasis on this word) protection.
  12. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    There were unofficial variant warbands for the regular Undead using the other vampire Bloodlines, namely Blood Dragon and Lahmia. They were less balanced.

    Undead originally were based around a conversion of the army of Undead which are mostly made up of a horde or undead that are led by very powerful Vampires as officers and empowered by the Necromancy of Necromancers(duh). In Mordheim those aspects are heavily downgraded to keep the Vampire and Necromancers for winning the battle with no effort. In Warband Skirmish the "mindless undead fodder" wouldnt work as Legendary-Games has heavily focused on the RPG elements so a mindless horde of zombies would be both useless

    Dregs for Undead and Mutants for Cult of the Possessed will be required as the "trooper" characters to fulfil the majority of warbands and be the equivalent of human Warrior/Marksmen and skaven Verminkin. Dregs would actually need an upgrade from tabletop mordheim as they are horrible, and not in the good way. Mutants are like Warriors/Markmen just with the mutations of Gifts of the Shadowlord.

    NOTE: I do have an idea for Undead in that all their warband slots are made up of Zombies by default that are both free and award no experience for killing. You could permanently replace the zombies either with Dregs, Necromancers, or a pay a permanent cost to upgrade the free horde slots to more effective Dire Wolves. Early on it would be an advantage in that you would have an expensive Vampire and free zombies but then gradually upgrade to smarter Dregs and possible keep Dire Wolves as an improved fodder unit. This would allow both the original undead horde style of making Vampire a lynchpin, but also work with Warban Skirmish's playstyle of an "all hero" warband.

    The Cult of the Possessed has so many possible details that Im looking forward to them, but PLEASE Legendary-games do a lot of testing on them.
  13. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I as well hope they are nice and tested as well as very fun as i am a chaos player by nature.
  14. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Well um can anyone else contribute to this brainstorming session? Thats actually a continuous problem as people type, but not actually adding anything. Half this thread is about my ideas of how to balance out new additions to keep them from being useless or overpowered.

    Legendary-Games, please remember that when you start releasing different warbands and characters to balance them against existing warbands and for their purposes. For WItch Hunters without Flaggellants and/or the Flagellants being too weak(because of no armor).

    Ill try a list.
    #1 dont make cash-only characters. Freelancers are borderline as you can still buy their equipment for other character. I dont want to see iconic characters like Flagellants or Beastmen with a price tag,

    #2 try to keep warbands unique in some way. Human Mercenaries have guns, so try sticking to whatever each warbands' original gimmick was.

    #3 Give the Warband Leader for each warband some better minimum stats. Going through tutorials to get a weapon skill 33 Captain is ridiculous. I dont want to see wimpy Vampires in the future.
  15. DTay88 Corporal

    Message Count:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    11
    K so as I see it vampires obviously wouldn't work until they worked out magic. And I think abandoning a straight from the game conversion would be important.

    I would say they get a vamp who is real good and give him almost the full merc equipment list (should really include pistols btw) and while they can't have more than 1 if their vamp is gone another vamp shows up in the tavern. They could have lots of cool skills

    Same goes for necromancer can't have more than 1 I think they should start with a summon zombie spell with other spells being skills that had various requirements and maybe different tiers. There was mention of a possible feature where skaven could summon ai controlled giant rats and I think zombies would work best the same way so they weren't taking up warband slots. Necromancer might have to be premium (I'm so not interested in whining about people having to pay for the game it's not a volunteer effort programmers need money)

    For normal units I would love ghouls (with some level of equipment available even if it's pretty basic)
    Then also some dregs who would be basic humans with restrictions of maybe no blackpowder (they do need to be worse than mercs to balance the rest so limiting but not completely eliminating ranged skills is key

    Ghouls should have some special skills (maybe two ranks of the toughness skill/4 wound levels making up for loss of armor
    Ewan Lamont likes this.
  16. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I think in terms of chaos seeing as their all mutations they could have normal skill as well as some others maybe anoter tree with mutations

    I don't know if they wield weapons on table top or not however.

    I think it would be fun to see what abominations would spawn with semi random skills, maybe their level up could be 2 random skills instead of you picking 1.
  17. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Okay Salj dont try to take credit for the mutation skill tree. Dtay88 I dont know about you but I am a volunteer testing this game for free. We all are.
    ============
    For Undead Ghouls would be quite bad. On the Tabletop theyre too limited as they have no equipment options and in Warband Skirmish equipment is about half the game. Thats why I put up Dregs as the choice for troopers. Dregs on the tabletop can use the same equipment as the Vampire including heavy armor and great weapons.

    Ghouls well they dont even fit now as Warhammer retconned all Ghouls into being more mindless undead instead of cowardly humans.

    Necromancer summoning zombies, thats an interesting idea unless they are prevented from learning other spells. Zombies flat out suck, but in Mordheim they only cost 15gold so having a warband full of them was possible and the strategy of the Undead warbands was to use them in a horde. So I think if they go with that route then you would need to be able to get more powerful zombies, possibly replaced with Dire Wolves or even WIghts(probably a premium unit).

    Spellcasters need planning. In Warhammer theyre unreliable but very powerful taking out whole regiments sometimes. In Mordheim that is scaled way down to basically having Pistols in the form of spells. They do have more substantial spells that are more difficult to cast. Randomized casting will probably need to be streamlined in some way. Possibly have "magic points" accumulate each turn and if you skip casting for a certain number of turns you can cast the more difficult spells.
  18. Salj Major

    Message Count:
    152
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Im not trying to take credit im thinking of an implementation that wouls stay within the fluff.
  19. DTay88 Corporal

    Message Count:
    45
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Do testers not get any fate points? I would think that they should but for the programmers it's their job and the way they have chosen to work in payment is premium units and healing wounds so I think accepting that some units will be bought with fate is important to have a real discussion.

    I would totally be fine if they had ad videos that you can watch instead of using fate if they could swing that. I know other games allow that

    So to me it feels like the fate units should be things that would only come In small numbers. Maybe undead would need a Wight unit as you mentioned and keep the necromancer free since he's pretty essential.

    And for the summoning zombies I definitely think being able to upgrade your zombie summoning in some way would be key.

    I know in game dregs were basically just youngbloods(which having 3 of those was pretty awesome after a few battles because those 1st 8 points of xp got 4 advances (So good). But the lack of missile fire of any substance hurt in longer campaigns so I feel like it should be slightly changed in porting it to this style
  20. Chaosticket Major

    Message Count:
    301
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Well all the future warbands have problems with limited shooting options. In the core Rulebook the Human Mercenaries, especially Reikland, are THE shooting Warband as they have access to everything from simple Bows to finely crafted Hochland Long Rifles . Half of the other warbands didnt even have access to Shooting Skills which meant they were stuck with Bows, Slings, or possibly no ranged weapons at all.

    Undead were the ones without zero ranged weapons by the way. It was how you countered the entire warband causing Fear.

    Chaos Cultists warband has multiple daemon-empowered units and monsters. Giving them Long Rifles on top of that would make them top tier.

    Specialization is probably going to be the future idea unless they want every warband to be Human Mercenaries but better.

Share This Page