How shooting exactly works?

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Marquand, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. Marquand Major

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    I've seen a post in here:
    http://forums.legendary-games.com/i...ion-of-combat-mechanic-please.3469/#post-6323
    But it's a bit vague. How exactly negative modifiers affect ability to hit? What are their values?

    Shooting in early stages of gameplay is horrendously inefective (as a player). I'm wondering why is that, since (for example) my marksman with BS 50 with a longbow, who remains stationary rarely has a chance higher than 25-35% to hit even at short range (if there is such thing). Needles to say the only way he can get xp is by surviving or opportunistic dagger to the stunned enemy's back, which I don't think is a point of being equipped with a shooting weapon. Yes, I know that later (ie. when everyone has a long rifle) marksmen are very effective but early on they are just ... .

    More frustrating is that AI controlled warbands hit veeeeery often, no matter the negative modifiers.
    For example they have no problems at all with hitting running target (who ends up in cover) at full range after moving. A feat that's impossible for my own shooters, unless 1-5% chance is something to rely on.
    How does AI work btw?
  2. Overwatch Community Manager

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    What do you mean by how does the AI work?

    Chance to hit (Ranged):

    50+(Attackers ballistic skill - modifiers)

    Ranged Modifiers:
    In little cover (-10)
    In a lot of cover (-30)
    Target Moved ( -10)
    Target Ran ( -20)
    Shooter Moved (-15)

    Range is also taken into consideration. For example, if you're using a bow there's a -4 modifier for each square that separates you and your opponent that you're targeting.
    morjax likes this.
  3. Chaosticket Major

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    Ah I can see the problem. Youve increased both the number of penalties and in some cases increased the penalties. In the original Game shooting long range, against a target in cover and with a a basic Ballistic Skill (about 30) would still ive you a 16% chance to hit.

    #1 Range is supposed to be a flat separating short range(up to half range, no penalty) and long range (above half-way, roughly -16%)

    #2 Cover has same penalty (-16%) whether its light or heavy. If its too heavy however like a solid wall you cannot see.

    #3 The target moving has no effect. #4 the shooter moving does.
  4. etherkye Major

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    The board game also didn't have the ability to make a lot of those choices.

    Necromunder had the light and heavy cover penalties though.
  5. Chaosticket Major

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    What do you mean about choices?

    Here Shooting is questionably effective. One one hand having a team of characters shooting instead of getting into melee allows defensive tactics, which I like. But the hit penalties are so high that getting an 84% chance to hit is basically impossible. Ranged attacks are fixed in attack strength while melee has Strength Increase skills, Mighty Blow, and two-handed weapons(so 70-80 strength) . Thats in combination which armor beings so much more effective effective here so ranged attacks are "chip damage".

    Are ranged weapons even useful after a point if hit chance and damage are so low? I know the original Mordheim creators didnt really expect whole teams of "boss characters" so didnt think about having super-strong ranged weapons.

    In Necroumunda well you could have a Lascannon to deal with boss characters.
  6. Gilar9 Private

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    Just another question about ranged attack of this game:

    I found it when one of my archers got engaged into a melee, all other archers cannot shoot anymore even they are not toe to toe to the attacker. Am not sure if it is the original mordheim rule. Just want to understand how it works and is there any disengage method. Thanks
  7. Chaosticket Major

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    Yes it was originally a Mordheim rule. You cannot shoot into Melee. You can disengage just by moving away but the Quick Reactions speed skill can give a free attack against someone who does that.

    It is a bit fuzzy in places. If you use a spear there is a distance enough between you to not be counted as "in melee" so you can be shot sometimes. The AI rarely has spears as its usually Freelancer mercenaries, so additional comments by other players would help with that,

    Its a good idea to have melee options even on ranged specialists.
  8. etherkye Major

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    Black powder weapons are STR40 with 10 armour ignore, so are effective late game. Even the 80 gold handgun can be devastating. You do need the skill to let you reload instantly though else they are pointless. But late game this isn't an issue.

    They are fixed in STR, but it does mean that you don't need to spend any points for a marksman into STR, saving you 3-5 skill points to spend elsewhere.

    There is a skill to ignore cover, and make something appear 6 squares closer. Both of these increase the chance to hit. I often have 74-89% chance and I'm missing the closer skill and don't have all 6 BS increases. I'm fairly sure I could get up to 95% hit chance if I wanted to.

    Also remember that ranged weapons, shooting twice a turn, enable you to get 6-8 shots off before they get into melee range. The warriors need to be stronger to counter this issue (they also need to survive getting there).


    You can't shoot into combat, there was never any rules to say otherwise in Mordhiem. Necromunder let you but there was a 50/50 chance of hitting your own guy (randomise after roll to hit). So normally a terribly bad idea, unless it was your trainee against their leader, then go for it!


    Quick Reactions is damn expensive in the skill tree, I don't think I've seen many people with it.


    Spears have a range of 1, you can use them to fight over one of your guys as well, but they are weak. You don't see the AI use them because all the AI teams are real teams made by players, and spears are shit.


    And you can unlock the sword skills on marksmen and then give them swords. You should see my latest warband!
  9. Chaosticket Major

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    Trick Shooter is an important skill as it removes cover penalties, which you will encounter a lot.

    Quick Shot allows you an additional attack at -5% base accuracy but its still a second shot.

    Nimble allows you to move and fire with any ranged weapon. It requires 2 more skills thank Trick Shooter so it is optional, but it makes any kind of pistol obsolete.

    I dont know if one-handed axes in your main hand increase ranged attack critical chance, but worth experimenting with.
  10. etherkye Major

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    Trick Shooter is only important if you don't have a scoped hockland, which thankfully I managed to find!

    Quick shot is MUST have. -5% on the second shot is still better then not having a second shot.

    Nimble is only 1 skill point, if using crossbows or blackpowder weapons you really need the mastery anyway as that's an extra 5% hit chance (maybe more) which is well worth it.



    And yes, yes it would! Crit chance and parry are applied to the stat sheet, so I think it should stack. Gromril sword gives 5% crit chance as well!
  11. Marquand Major

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    Also remember that your long rifles will do 1-2 dmg 75% of the time, while the same weapon in the AI warband will crit you on 6-8-10 no matter the armour :)
  12. Chaosticket Major

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    Eagle Eyes is a skill someone else can hopefully explain better. It increases the maximum range of ranged weapons and effectively increases accuracy. Its especially important to short ranged weapons like Knives, Pistols, and Handguns. Unfortunately it requires you to get Bow Mastery, when bows become mostly obsolete, Elven Longbow notwithstanding. I doubt it its worth it.

    There are some skills in other skill trees that help in ranged combat. Strike to Injure is Combat(aka melee) skill that increases critical hit chance. (Maybe it works for ranged attacks as well. Need confirmation.)

    Strength skills can work well by allowing use of armor without a speed penalty, passive defense increase, more hit points and generally less of an easy target.

    Speed skills can also help. Initiative increases effect your spotting distance, essential on longer ranged weapons like the Hochland Long Rifle/Scoped Rifle. Dodge has hefty requirements but makes you 15% harder to hit from range. Perception doubles your spotting range(does it actually work?)

    Ambush allows you free ranged attacks if youre in stealth. Need additional feedback to know if that breaks stealth or works well with other special powers. (if breaks stealth may be useless)
  13. etherkye Major

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    It's nowhere near that bad!
  14. etherkye Major

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    It does, the increased accuracy is the most important part. But it's Bow Mastery OR Blackpowder Mastery. I'd go for the Blackpowder option.

    It does, but then you need 40WS, and that's quite expensive.

    INT is the second most important stat for marksmen, and some of the skills are VERY good. Perception does work, but is directly countered by Hidden in the Shadows. Which seams to be why we all keep getting shot by people we can't see.

    It only breaks hidden if you're within range. Mixing it with Hidden In The Shadows can mean you get quite a lot of free ambush shots a turn.
  15. Chaosticket Major

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    Generally I think rangedweapons can be separated in tiers. Bows are bottom and require little to pick up and use but are certainly better with certain skills. Bow Mastery isnt much use unless you get an Elven Longbow.

    Crossbows are a stronger and are required to to get Trick Shooter skill. Mastery is optional unless you want Nimble.

    Blackpowder weapons are later and require Blackpowder Training, Blackpowder Mastery and Huntsman to be useful. Its highly suggested to have Quick Shot and Trick Shooter before attempting to use blackpowder weapons.

    In Theory sticking to a Longbow or Crossbow and putting skills into other areas can make a comparable option to blackpowder weapons , for example Perception+Hidden in Shadows+Ambush.
  16. etherkye Major

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    You don't need crossbow mastery to get Nimble, it's Crossbow Master OR Blackpowder Mastery.

    And you should have Quick Shot as soon as possible. Only skill you need before you use black powder weapons is Hunter.
  17. Chaosticket Major

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    Okay I think Im visually filtering out Blackpowder mastery as a requirement for some of these skill requirements.

    Apparently Blackpowder Mastery is necessary(or optional in some cases) for Nimble, Eagle Eyes, Hunter, and Pistolier. You can skip Mastery or even training in other types of weapon. Only Crossbow training is necessary for Trick Shooter.

    The trick is that Blackpowder weapons arent useful without 3 skills spent on their path. Otherwise just use a Crossbow. Once you do so a Handgun basically replaces the Crossbow and Longbow.

    Personally I put Trick Shooter before Quick Shot as its a +10-30% chance to hit increase. Compare firing twice with a chance of 11/5% to hit or firing once with 41%.
  18. etherkye Major

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    Trick shooter for some reason is the ONLY skill you must have crossbow mastery in first. I don't get why the rest of them are all optional between crossbow and black powder except that one. I think it's a bug to be honest.

    I think that Quick Shot is more important.

    Say iy's a 50% chance to hit (30BS and heavy cover cancelling each other).

    Trick Shooter ignores cover, which makes it 80% chance to hit, 1 shot.

    Quick Shot gives you 50% chance to hit in the first attack, and 45% chance to hit in the second, which is 95% chance to hit once between them, and 22.5% chance that both will hit!

    That's at least 15% better odds.


    Honestly you need both at some point, but Quick Shot is better early on, and it's easier to get.
  19. Chaosticket Major

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    Trick Shooter only requires Crossbow Training, not Mastery. Trick Shooter and Quick Shooter are both essential skills for shooting. I think we can agree on that.

    Marksmen recruits start with Bow training. Warriors are better off skipping it for Crossbow Training(if you want to shoot, its optional for Warriors).
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    Etheryke can you answer the following?

    Long range penalties are very severe in this game. What the point of having 30+ range if you get into single digit hit chance even with multiple skill upgrades after a point? Is it possible to actually hit something at long range?

    Is it worth getting a Handgun or is it better to stick to a Crossbow and save money for a Hochland Long Rifle?

    Is the Hochland Long Rifle worth its rarity and price tag?
  20. etherkye Major

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    I think the range penalties only kick in over half range, or at least the longer your range the gentler the penalties are.

    I'd skip crossbow due to the skill point and just go straight from elven bow to a scoped hockland.

    I use the hockland with my leader, he's only had 2 BS upgrades and can still hit with 65%-75% at 20-30 range, dropping to about 55% at the end of my 48 range. I don't have Eagle Eyes.

    I would try to get the scoped hockland if possible as it'll save you 2 skill points for 100 more gold.

    Just make sure to keep him alive!
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