Is Armor/Defense broken?

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Chaosticket, Jun 23, 2017.

  1. Chaosticket Major

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    Ive played alot of Games-Workshop games like Mordheim so I am familiar with many of the details but others are changed for the Mordheim Warband Skirmish adaptation.

    Original a D6 dice game when attacking you #1 rolled to hit, #2 rolled to wound, #3 rolled to see if armor negates the wound.

    Originally there are no "hit points" but rather most characters have have a single wound point. Once you lost that you would be downed.

    Armor In Warband Skirmish seems to work very differently. I see it reducing damage on nearly every hit instead of Yes-Or-No style. On an unarmored character seeing 1-6 damage is normal, but with armor its 0-2. I Think that Strength of attack raises the average damage roll.

    Its really nasty seeing pay-to-win characters bought with cash and equipped with heavy armor "tanking" hits. It takes a lot of upgraded skills to have counters like Handguns as you would need 45 Ballistic Skill, Trick Shot, Quick Shot, Crossbow Training, and Hunter and about 100 gold per weapon. Melee weapons like Maces and Warhammers only seem to have limits on maximum armor so you cannot reduce defense down to 0. I think ultra-rare(and expensive) Gromril weapons reduce Defense.
  2. etherkye Major

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    Armour isn't broken, that's for sure.

    The stats are on the forum somewhere, but armour reduces the chance to hit. Damage is based on STR, maximum damage is STR/10. If you have a STR45 you do 4 damage, and a 50% change to do a 5th.

    I am one of those that has a warband in full heavy armour and tanking hits, but I didn't pay cash for any of them. I bought all the armour through very hard earned wyrdstone.

    However any warband with a few handguns will deal a lot of damage to them, and require a lot less skills to be effective then my warriors do.
  3. Marquand Major

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    Armour reduces chance to hit? It makes no sense. What's WS then for?
  4. etherkye Major

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  5. Marquand Major

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    So it doubly doesn't make sense. I hit guy three times (we're past the point where rmour counts). I'm strenght 70, he doesn't parry and yet I deal 0,0,1 with every blow. How's that possible?
  6. etherkye Major

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    Whats your warband name, and theirs if you know it. Overwatch will look into it for you.
  7. Marquand Major

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    I disbanded the warband. I think Overwatch knows my... concerns.

    Etherkye you don't have such problems? Like 2 of your best warriors with high strenght hitting with all attacks dealing 0 or 1 point to a single guy who in return does double digits critical hits with every attack?
  8. etherkye Major

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    The Three Tenor's never had that problem. I would often hit for 8 damage, and against heavy armour I'd still get 4-6's. Never taken more then 4 damage back apart from against hockland long rifles which have hit for a lot more then they should be able to.

    I do think there are problems, and I disagree with how armour is implimented, but I've always hit for good damage amounts.
  9. Marquand Major

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    Hm. Might that be I'm cursed?
    I think I'll record my matches.:eek:
  10. Overwatch Community Manager

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    Strength only determines what damage you can potentially do. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are going to be hitting hard every single time you strike your opponent. If you have a unit that has a STR of 70 that means you'll be able to hit anywhere between 0-7 (not including Crits). Parry can negate up to 3 damage when a successful parry occurs, so it's highly possible for you to land 0's and 1's.

    Defence does not affect how hard you'll hit, it only affects the hit chance. If you are seeing low percentages for hit chance that usually indicates that your opponent has a better weapon skill than you, therefore will land more successful attacks. If they're landing a lot of crits as well that can be down to the fact that they have a high crit chance.

    Feel free to record your matches and show us how you're getting on though... I'd certainly be interested to see the sort of matches you're playing!
  11. Chaosticket Major

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    Im not seeing low hit chances but rather hits that are 0-2 with a little Armor icon appearing when I do hit. Agaianst an unarmored target Im seeing hits with 1-6 damage. a 6 Damage hit is a nasty surprise.

    Armor seems to heavily part of the overall metagaming design created by Warband Skimish. Ive seen Gromrill armor have 40 defense, shields with 15 defense, helmets with 10 defense, and the Resilience Skill gives 10 passsive Defense. So that is up to (40+15+10+10=) 75.

    SO how are 30 strength Bows or really any ranged attacks supposed to beat that? Throwing Knives may be useless ingame as they require so many Skill upgrades necessary to wield, but are at best as strong as the person using them. Blackpowder Weapons seem like they are supposed to be late-tier items, and are unbalanced by Quick Shot being compatible with them.
  12. Overwatch Community Manager

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    The shield icon shows when either you or your opponent is using cover.

    Armour plays a big part in hit chance, so if you want to avoid hits, the best way to do so would be to use armour to your advantage. These aren't easily obtained, especially if you're going for Gromrill armour.

    Like I've stated above, the defence does not affect how hard you'll be hitting. You could still take your opponent out of action if you were to use a bow, even if they did have heavy armour on. If you land a successful hit you'll be taking down their wounds, which will result in their demise if you continue to pick them off. Essentially, stay out of range from melee attacks and you'll be able to counter heavy armour types.

    Quick shot is only compatible with black powder weapons if you have the Hunter skill as well, which ignores the reload penalty. If you have the Quick shot ability and are using black powder weapons you won't be able to take a second shot. This is much different from weapons like crossbows where you can take multiple shots without having the hunter skill.
  13. Chaosticket Major

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    Then why am I doing so low damage on hits against armored targets? Hitting them isnt hard. In melee Ive only ever once had less than a 40% chance to hit in melee, so I thought a 20% chance to hit is a bug.

    Ranged attacks have a low chance to hit because of the combination of cover, range, and movement. Ive still hit armored targets but never seen my attacks do much damage to them.

    In other words Armor reduces damage not hit chance. Also you took Armor reducing hit chance from Dungeons and Dragons, for shame.
  14. Marquand Major

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    No, I know what he means. When you attack someone you get 4 possible icon results:
    Normal wounds (just number)
    Critical hit (number with "critical")
    Armour protection (number, often 0 with shield icon)
    Parry (number with parry icon)
    IT clearly shows that armour works versus dmg not hits.
  15. Chaosticket Major

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    I really think it should be more like the original Mordheim tabletop game for damage and armor

    You try to hit, try to hurt(toughness is missing stat here), try to get past armor, each one a d6 roll and if you fail 0 damage. Then if you opponent has multiple wounds you need to attack again.

    Right now Id like to see an actual realtime interface showing the calculations for every detail so Im not attacking someone with a hidden 40% parry chance and wondering why Im taking 6 damage while doing 0.
  16. Overwatch Community Manager

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    Like Marquand has stated this is what the icons represent:
    • Normal attack - just number
    • Critical hit - number with "Critical"
    • Armour protection - this is shown as a shield which demonstrates that you have deflected an attack. Armour reduces the likelihood of your opponent being able to land a successful attack, hence it showing up as 0.
    • Parry - Number with parry icon
    • Stun - Stars icon and number
    It would be very hard for us to be able to display all of the statistics on the screen at once, as this would take up way too much space on the UI. As you can imagine for some users, this wouldn't look too great on their devices especially if they had a small screen.

    You should be aware of why your attacks aren't landing if you follow the icons, parry will always be represented by two swords clashing, armour deflection is shown by a shield icon and missing... well missing is just represented by "Missed!".
  17. Chaosticket Major

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    Only chance to hit shown. Wound threshold isnt. I think its supposed to be up to 1 damage per 10 attack strength. Both armor and parry chance are also not shown and randomly activate reducing damage, commonly to 0.

    Combine these things all together and youre surprised when Im finding only 10-5% of my attacks are getting through, and only criticals doing more than 2 damage?

    Against targets without Parry or Armor the difference is major, basically double. Normal players dont have Freelancers making up the warband.
  18. ScubaSteve Major

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    Yah it is tough to fight against guys in heavy plate. The best way I have found when confronting these warbands is extremely heavy firepower. Enough shots with a long rifle will take them down but then you have other problems as marksmen ship becomes all powerful. Fortunately two handed weapons will make a dent against a heavily armored opponent but generally when fighting against the best you are going to need to jump one plate mail warrior with three guys to bring him down.
  19. Marquand Major

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    This is a beginner's problem. It all comes together the more you play. Your warriors become more skilled, stronger with better weapons and protection of their own. To achieve this you need good planning, reasonable income/outcome management and good planning on the battlefield. You don't always need/have to win every battle. If you go all out every time, well... City will punish you.

    Ok, so high armour is a problem? Take:
    Two handed:
    - Great swords. Good balance in offense (+20S) and defense (+15 to parry).
    Flammberg if you prefere greater parry chance and less S (+15S, +25parry). Also, if I recall right they have lower I penalty.
    Gromril greatsword - always.
    - Great axes. Ostland Great Axe with +20S and +25% crit. Add strike to injure to that and you crit 50% of the time.
    - Great Hammers. Power weapons (or thunder hammers?) of Mordheim. Comet maul is a must, +20S and reducing armour to 20. They are the best can openers, you don't crit as much as with the axe , nor do you have parry chance of a gretsword but you deal reliable damage that won't be stopped by armour.

    Single handed:
    - Mace, Skull Hammer - the best options versus heavy armour. Enemy max armour is 30 without weapons mstery, with weapons mastery it's 25 for the mace and 20 for the hammer. Best to make a tank of your own with mace/hammer, shield, heaviest armour you can get, helmet etc.
    - Gromril sword - my favorite weapon. Gives you +5%crit chance, +20% to parry and -15enemy arm. Nice with shield, awesome with buckler.
    - Gromril axe - can't remember :)

    Also bear in mind that not every weapon is good for everyone:
    Single handed versions are best used on high S warriors.
    Great sword is good for everyone but feels somehow weaker in the later stages
    Great axes and great hammers can be given to weaker warriors so they can rely on crit/ignore armour.

    That's it.
  20. Chaosticket Major

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    All that completely misses that none of that effects ranged weapons.

    #1 Ranged Penalties to hit chance are quite high. Even with upgrades its quite common to see hit chances being under 25%.

    #2 damage. Melee weapons can have increased damage by increasing strength. Without criticals its common to see o-1 damage. There is no way to increase damage and I checked with Overwatch to see if Critical chance increases effect ranged weapons. Except for expensive and one-use Hunting Arrows, they do not. Its possible to get 70-90 strength with melee with a 55% chance to inflict double damage. That is far higher than you can achieve with any ranged weapon.

    #3 anti-armor. Some ranged weapons invoke a penalty to armor success rate, but they are impractical due to a number of factors. Handguns are more better against armor but also much lower accuracy than a Crossbow. Also there is no equivalent of the Mace/Hammer types weapons' armor cap. So with the right build its possible to have 80-100% armor rate before penalties.

    Melee combat is extremely powerful and easily counters armor. Even a basic 4 gold Warhammer can cap armor at 25% chance and can be upgraded to make 3 attacks at 60 strength. A Hochland Long Rifle worth 600gold cant do that!

    Really its an attempt at programming combat balance. Defense effects and Armor are buffed up while ranged attacks are nerfed from the original Mordheim. You could have a character with an 84% chance to hit and take people out in one hit from a basic Bow or a single throwing knife. Here you can have a character that can take 17 hits before going down. So its easy to make "meat shields/tanks" blocking absurd amounts of hits.

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