Is Elf Ranger too powerfull?

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by CzaRus, Mar 26, 2020.

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Does Elf Ranger require nerfs?

Yes, I think Elves should have both magic removed and stats nerfed. 1 vote(s) 12.5%
Yes, I think Elves should have magic removed, but stats are fine. 4 vote(s) 50.0%
Yes, I think Elves should have stats nerfed, but lesser magic is fine. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Yes, I think Elves should be limited 1/2 per warband, much like Vampires. 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Yes, I think Elves should be restricted to only use certain items, like Ogre. 1 vote(s) 12.5%
No, I think Elves should stay the same. 2 vote(s) 25.0%
  1. CzaRus Major

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    For lesser price than an Ogre, we get a model several times more powerfull than him, with same movement (highest in the game, making it easy to outrun anyone), *higher* WS than a designated melee model, with initiative higher than any other model in the game, with highest BS stat in the game, with access to Lesser Magic (another movement boost, potential WS boost, more shots with magic bow....), with rerolls on every damn action, he is better than a bloody Vampire, but you can have 4 of these!!! Playing human warbands, you can not simply fight warbands with elves without having better elves then they do, it is almost impossible, and in PVP indeed impossible (from personal experience, my warbands were wiped floor with). Elf is like a Marienburger + Warlock + whatever mutant, with no disadvantage what so ever, and making Warlocks and Halflings totally pointless. Wearing armour is not needed, as Elves are so rarely hit, thus boosting cast chance of spells. And they have a starting kit of armour and elven bow (unlike previously mentioned Ogre, and some others). Meta for humans now only has one point, more good Elves = victory. And they also have very little point penalty for using blackpowder weapons, for their magic imunity etc. They are an insanely overpowered hired sword, and should be therefore nerfed in some way.
    Anyone who has simillar opinion, I beg you to share it here.
  2. Enajien Private

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    While I find Elves to be a very strong hiredsword they fill a different role than Ogres. I find Ogres and Elves about the same power for warbands. While both Ogres and Elves basically obsolete all other basic hired swords (Vampire and warrior priest remain stronger) I would rather see more good hiredswords made rather than nerf the top two. We have a strong tank, we have a strong ranged. How about a buff to pit fighter to be on par for a strong melee damage dealer.
  3. Erkebrand Private

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    I like playing with elves, and I want to see sooner than later a elven band release. But about them as hired sword my opinion is the next:
    -About magic, elves are able to learn it, but as hired sword there is no need of giving the choice, they make warlocks inefficient even having lower cast chance because of having armor.
    -about using black powder weapons, I'm in disagree, their ears will bleed in the first shoot xD their main use is for listen elven music. About crossbows, I don't care, dark elves used them.
    -i like the rerrolls, if the first two points are adjusted there will be no need of removing this thing, and it makes some sense on them, they are disgusting elves.
    -They have good stats, that's ok, and they can get a very nice late game stats, so my solution on this could be easy, they should start at level 10 or so. This will make them learn skills much slower.
    -about reducing their number to 1 or 2 per band I'm agree, but if they are nerfed enough it could not be necessary. Anyway, I will reduce to 2 any hired sword kind, I would like to see more variety on warbands.

    The actual problem is that they are ingame now, and people have for sure expend fate on them, and after reviving them if they get nerfed some players may get angry unfortunately. If you have expend xp on some skills that would disappear, you could reapply to other perks? This may be difficult for developers but will be fine. Balancing the game will make some people disgusted, not balancing it make PvP unfair, it's complicated.

    Anyway devs, you are doing a amazing game, you will find the way ;)
    Perl Fisher likes this.
  4. CzaRus Major

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    They actually did this in past (I mean refunding xp for removed perks) with Reikland, when they got speed skills removed in ~2017. They could sure do refunding fate as well..
    Erkebrand likes this.
  5. Shangular Major

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    I guess I never understood why do these guys get access to Lesser Magic? I realize they can't unequip their armor so will always have some penalty to casting, but still, I prefer if the mobile game matched up to the TT version. Statwise, I'm okay with them, although it's interesting that they can wield blackpowder weapons as it seems very un-elflike. If there were an option above available, I'd choose remove access to lesser magic and blackpowder weapons. Stats are fine imo.

    The argument about making another Hired Sword obsolete can be easily fixed again if the mobile version stayed true to the TT version where only one type of Hired sword is allowed per warband.
    Perl Fisher likes this.
  6. Enajien Private

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    I would be very disappointed if you removed black powder and spells from elves. You would make them basically useless at end game and everyone who wanted the strong warbands would just go back to ogres...
  7. CzaRus Major

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    They don't deserve them either, lorewise. And since their BS is *BS* high (*hidden joke*), the elven bow is still as powefull as any other gun used by human mercs, maybe even better. And spells are simply an overkill. 1 captain as a powerfull spellcaster with high both melee and ranged combat abilities is far enough to make it more-less balanced. Now you can (in fact must to match current meta) have 5 of these, 4 of which are even more deadly and powefull. 1 well trained elf can handle end-game vampire with hardly any trouble, the rest of elves is there just to raise the raiting high enough or provide little support. Elves are just as good or better then vampires, and that is in all matters wrong. To clirify: I do NOT own Undead, so this is not just a rant cuz my vamp sucks, it is the point of this discussion that elves are just cheap OP joke that needs some rebalancing.
    Perl Fisher likes this.
  8. Enajien Private

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    A single vampire played by a player would destroy 4 elves without taking much damage... even if the elves were played by another player. Especially if you took away their spells and black powder. Since you don't have undead it's really hard for you to judge just how powerful a vampire is in a player's hands. The AI doesn't know how to delay and stealth into fights.

    Armour is king at end game. Elven bows just won't do enough even with high BS. They have -10 s, -12 range, and -5% accuracy on a long rifle. Plus superior black powder is way stronger than arrows. You would move from a model being able to do a point or two per shot to end game tanks to one which basically won't hurt them.

    That isn't even to mention a player using a warrior priest who is just immune to elves... (I assume sister's have a similar model)
  9. Erkebrand Private

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    I'm testing a band with 4 elves, but using only the skills they should use to be balanced in my opinion, it's true that elven bows are not a very high menace for armoured tanks, even with the ambush perk and delaying turn to get a third free shoot per turn.

    If the other suggestions get fixed, it could be interesting to have a skill for after giving them 3 strength points, be able to unlock +10str to ranged attacks with bows. This has some sense for late game. And allows them to have something like a sniper rifle with half cover penalty and less range.

    About vampires, they depend on their WS and armor, and this makes them hard to beat. Elves can have rerolls, and this could make them also hard to injurre in combat.
  10. Enajien Private

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    I do get that flavor wise it would make more sense to give them bows and skills for +12 range and +10 s with elven bows... but that is harder to implement than just giving them black powder. The big thing for me, which I said in another thread as well, is that these elves are mercenaries they are not the high elf army. Mercenaries and people who go to mordheim in general are more unusual and unique than their general racial armies. It makes sense for an elf mercenary who would sell their service to a random other factions warband to use a more expanded array of weaponry.
  11. Shangular Major

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    I believe what the original poster was trying to convey is that elf rangers should be good, but not the most dominant warrior on the field. I'm coming from the perspective of a long-time TT Mordeim fan, so the significant difference from the TT version is why I thought the lesser magic and blackpowder didn't make sense. I still think even without, they are still viable hired swords.

    Now in terms of how dominant they are today, it's still hard to tell at end game as I haven't seen any yet at that level and I'm still working to level up the 2 I have. My definition of end game is a warband 6000+ rating. I know many people view comparisons at WB ratings of 1500 - 2000 but that isn't end game imo. I still think that the most powerful warband is a fully leveled up skaven warband being unarmed in the main hand (due to the unarmed skill) and warplock pistol in the offhand. These guys get many attacks each plus shooting and can easily carve through armor. They also have the initiative and movement speed to compete with elves. Yes, I have an undead warband with a fully leveled up vampire as well. Even with max WS and armor, fully leveled skaven as described above does kill him. I've also tested it the other way around too with my Skaven warband.

    4 elves fully leveled up vs a vampire fully leveled up can kill a vampire. Keep in mind that if I were the elf player I wouldn't be trying to kill the vampire by shooting. Elves can have a higher than merc WS and I'd be using skull hammers to attack the vampire. With the flight spell you could get the alpha strike or play the hit and run tactic where the vampire couldn't strike back. Then there's also the tactic of simply throwing holy water at the vampire. When I use to play my Merc captain as a solo warband, I've killed vampires this way armed with a skull hammer. Now obviously this also depends on how each warbands other warriors are used. But my point is don't forget that elves have a high WS and thus with skull hammers can do some damage in close combat as well for any non-Skaven warband. For Skavens see my comments in the previous paragraph,
  12. Enajien Private

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    The theory crafting is getting pretty intense in here... I love it. :D Undead would destroy elves with mauls. Elves are not immune to fear and as soon as one failed it would be dead. Plus they wouldn't ever find the vampire, who has a larger charge range than the elves. Also if you depend on wings for defense eventually it will fail since they can't get 100% and then again the elf is dead. Double also, without str their attacks with mauls are fairly weak compared to other models. Sure they have +10 WS, but so does the vampire... who has unstoppable charge btw for when he catches an elf. Plus the Vampire has the same I as the Elf who has a comet maul since the elf can't remove the I penalty. Mauls on elves are really a bad idea.
  13. Jesse Shaffer Major

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    So this might put things into perspective for some. I have a four elf & one human warband called Thalmor with a rating of 1194. All members are in their 30’s and they have zero points in health. One of the elves has five health and the rest have three. While that might not seem like much, it honestly felt like overkill. During the hundreds of matches it took to reach their current rating, they really only ever needed one.

    I actually grew board of them for that reason and stopped playing them. And this is without magic.
  14. Shangular Major

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    This is a good debate. Love it as well. The theory though is also based on facts.

    1) Fact, from personal experience my formerly solo Middenheim captain is able to kill a high level vampire by himself using a skull hammer. Now my full Middenheim warband kills vampires with their Comet mauls. This warband is at 6,600 rating and other Undead are easier opponents. The toughest opponents as I've mentioned above are those high level Skaven. I recently replaced 2 of my warriors in this warband with elves and I'd love to test this again once I finish levelling them up. But since I could do it with just my captain with a 65 WS, having a couple others armed with skull hammers with 75 WS can't hurt. To clarify for Elves I'd use skull hammers not comet mauls.

    2) If I'm facing a high level vampire and plan to go into close combat with the elves, I'd have them take mad cap, so ignores Fear.

    3) When you say that "never will find the vampire", remember in PVP you're playing to the objective. So you'll have a good sense of where you're opponents are. Plus Elves have that skill that triples their awareness range. When you have max initiative plus a lantern, you'll be able to spot all hidden opponents if you position warrior correctly.

    Hopefully this game will get active again. I was pleasantly surprised that my main warband got a PVP match today! I don't think I've had a chance to play against a high level PVP opponent in over a year. I noticed there's lots of activity with WBs in the 100 - 200 ratings, but not much once you're past 3,000.
    CzaRus likes this.
  15. Enajien Private

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    So here is what is weird to me. Your facts are based on PvE. In PvE you have to be very very very out powered to lose. Like Elves or not an AI Vampire just moves forward, doesn't stealth, gets charged and dies. It's not fair to decide how good or bad things are vs AI. In PvP your assumptions are based on you being able to out maneuver or out play your opponent. That is kind of the point. So again elves are not a huge factor here. If you out maneuver your enemy and can charge their vampire you deserve the win. If you don't and they charge you... they should easily get the win.

    The biggest thing about elves really is, since this is mostly a PvE game, do they ruin your fun. I find elves a fun addition to the game which lets me build diverse warbands. I don't want to feel bad for taking a halfling because I want a different warband than just 4 ogres because it's clearly a way weaker pick. I can now freely pick between ogres and elves to fill in. I want more strong hired swords like the ogre or elf so I have more options without intentionally weakening my warband for the same of diversity.
  16. Shangular Major

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    Nope, all facts are based on PVP. When I ran my captain solo I’ve killed many high level vampires. Can’t remember all the opponent names but one that I still remember because the name stood out was a vampire named OP AF. I then made that warband into a full warband and faced other similar rates Undead opponents in PvP. It’s actually easier to kill the vampire because I have multiple hammer swinging warriors. Sure one may die as a sacrificial lamb but then the vampire dies easy. Also back then there were only 2 scenarios available in PvP: Capture the small circles or defend the big circle. Either way you know where your opponent will be. So my point is since can already kill a vampire solo in PvP with a Merc captain, having 2 other warriors who can fly around wielding skull hammers and have a higher WS only makes it easier. Tbh, I don’t need the elves to kill vampires, the other guys with hammers do just fine:). Once I get these 2 elves to at least lvl 30 happy to test the elves theory in PvP if anyone wants to try. Happy to do so now but these guys are only lvl 11 so won’t try the close combat tactic with them.


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  17. Erkebrand Private

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    They will deal damage when they're leveled enough, the skill to reroll attacks combined with those rifles ignoring cover, and the ambush skill will be devastating for sure. It's absolutely legal anyway.

    In my opinion and my main intention when I'm speaking here is to find variety in the hired swords. I mean when you see an ogre, you know he is a tank, and if it's carrying a two handed weapon you know it's going to hurt if he has success on the impacts with that low WS.

    With other mercenaries, it's similar, each one has his role, and some may be a bit similar in some things but very different in others. I would like to see elves not interfering to much with warlocks for example cause they are cheap, but if they don't have success on magic they are nothing. This one's can miss casting spells and it may be ok, cause you can hit hard on melee or ranged after that if you want.

    They also have very high leadership, and with some investment they may not need beer or mad caps (use them for safety xD)

    What could be interesting is to have them as ranged mercenaries, with low armor, with a lot of mobility compared to a human, and also good fighters but with much lower armor than other hired swords.

    To have another kind of mercenary like a specialized sniper/ pistolier or knife thrower as the one I remember from TT will be ok, so bands with no possibility of having ranged like middenheim could have things to choose. But elves should not use fireguns to be lore accurate, for that we will have dwarves later, and for sure more mercenary kinds in the future.
    CzaRus likes this.
  18. Algirdas25 Major

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    My opinion
    Elves shouldn't have acces to gunpowder weapons, lore wise
    Ranger luck should get nerfed, it just too good (compared to other units with acess to rerols) (one per turn maybe? Not all active) no acess to magic,(he is scout ,not spellcaster ) again lorewise
    Bow or crossbow should be fine
    Higher stats too, but maybe little lover inititive? Like- 5 (so he still have 15 more than standard human lad)
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  19. Shangular Major

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    I’ve continued to test these elves against high level warbands 6000 - almost 10k. Most are PVE since I’ve only been able to find 2 PVP opponents since I returned to this game (if anyone has a 6000 plus warband who wants to PVP let me know :) ). At lvl 27 and 28 so far.

    Combined with high initiative and BS, Ambush, sniper rifles and that re-roll skill, they are really good as others have said. The Flight skill is an added bonus which I haven’t used much just because of the low success chance. They definitely add a solid tactical option. Plus they look good in thunderer caps.

    I don’t think they’re as OP as I originally thought. Against 4 high level ogres or armored warriors who have ignore stun you’ll still have a hard time if you rely solely on these guys. But they would give your opponent one more thing to think about.

    I’m having fun with these elves as is, but still believe they would be viable and useful even without lesser magic and black powder weapons and would fit better lore wise. Need to level these guys more so I could test tactics using both range and melee abilities. That re-roll skill is nice for melee too. One potentially OP skill is if you’re able to get the flaming sword spell. Normally that spell sucks at high level because even when the high WS, there is no armor reduction. But if you combine it with the reroll ability, perhaps it could be dangerous. Good thing elves can’t replace that armor with a mage robe.

    Just curious, when these new warriors are play tested in beta, do they get tested at high level too?

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