It's a hard game, and that's why it's great

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by TheWizardWatley, Sep 20, 2017.

  1. TheWizardWatley Major

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    For some of us old school types who grew up with 1st and 2nd ed D&D, Ghosts and Goblins, Fighting Fantasy, and the ever present Thudd Gun, games were hard, meant to be challenging, frustrating, filled with constant death and new characters, permadeath (which is just a euphemism for no saves), and a battle against Fortuna who always gave the 20's to the DM. Wargaming, which incidentally is what this game is, is not an easy thing, usually being pitted against another person means someone is going to lose (inherent nature of competitive games), and unless social dynamics have radically altered in the last thirty odd years, no one likes a sour loser or a bad winner.

    And here seems to be where the old school and the new clash. Anyone born from the early eighties onwards has had computer games to play and a console, and more and more since then, computer games have had such handy concepts as saving games, and immersive storylines which allow the player the feeling of success because they "finished" the game. This introduces a new problematic dynamic to the gaming psychology. Where once upon a time (and actually not that long ago) players played war games, RPGs (proper ones, not computer games), and crappy corner store Pingu machines, that were 'permadeath' and that gave us the grit to keep playing even if things went bad. Modern gamers seem to Want to be able to achieve victory all the time, can't cope with difficult concepts like losing a match, and as all evidence has suggested, do not understand the thinking behind self limiting game systems. They want more and more glory for personal reasons, and less for the satisfaction of the game itself. (One just has to watch a bunch of guys playing Magic the Slathering or Yugioh to see what I mean, it really is all about the self and not about the game).

    So here's my thinking, in the face of critics for whom the deliberately designed and difficult aspects of this iteration of Mordheim have caused flummoxes. It's meant to be hard. On the table, someone is going to lose, and most likely someone will lose warband memebers. It might suck massively to realise that the crew you have been modelling and painting like crazy are now functionally useless and it would be better to start afresh, but that's the fun of the old school game. Take it on the chin and move on. The fact that you don't even have to spend hours and hours remodelling for a game, only to get beaten again and again, is a massive PERK in this particular apps case. As it stands, battling the AI is a helluva lot easier than some sneaky weasel (by which I mean my mates) sitting across the table who have intelligence and adaptive imagination.

    Now, I dig that the game here is not complete, and I guess if you are the kind of person who expects the very best from everything, then this must be annoying (poor self indulgent darlings), but for me, who had a C64 with a tape deck to load games, c. 1985, that's to be expected. Games really are a lot less buggy and a lot more reliable and user friendly these days, take my word for it.
    As anyone who has a tablet or dumbphone device knows, updates happen. YouTube, FB, google, and virus scanners all constantly updating and fixing and improving. All the other apps, doing the same thing. And, so, here too. Few games these days are released in a 100% complete format, and most of the rest will be improving and upgrading and adding features after release. So, realistically, there's no valid call for complaining about the state of the game. It's a lot gentler than the tabletop, yet still has the harshness and difficulty and GRIND I expect from Mordheim (having actually played the table
    Furthermore, while I have no experience of the difficulty of computer programming, I understand that it is not easy, nor do things work how they are always meant to. Time consuming, probably frustrating, definitely unrecognised labour.
    This wonderful, difficult, frustrating and awesome game deserves a lot more credit than some are giving it. It's old school, how RPGs and war games use different to be, before we had to pander to a bunch of self indulgent children who grew up playing games they knew they would win.


    And that's my two groats....
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  2. Chaosticket Major

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    I have more fun from Xcom 1994 and Dark Souls 2, which are both difficult and fun.

    Why cant this game be better than something made 23 years ago?
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  3. JustinS Private

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    A big difference between tabletop gaming and computer gaming is the bookkeeping. In analog games, if the addition was wrong or the bonuses not applied correctly the fault lay with the players.

    What is most frustrating about digital games is the addition of bugs into the calculations/bonuses and so on. Frustrating in that paying for a product that produces outcomes like ganger death BUT without the player having access to the rules behind the outcome. Part o this can be fixed with an in-depth rulebook, in the same manner of tabletop games. Just show me the table on which my character has to roll, I'm fine with the game making the roll. But to just have a death occur without the "rules" or formulas known feels off, particularly when there's an immediate ask for cash following.

    I grew up playing arcade games, and paper and pen games, I'm used to having my character die. But I also feel I've been a bit trained with newer games to expect less harsh outcomes.
  4. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Exactly the point I'm making. The pussification of gaming.

    Mind you, they might suggest you spend fate, but it's not vital nor compulsory. I grinded my way to the top of the shard count table with hardly a dollar spent.
  5. Chaosticket Major

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    Its suspicious that little to none of the mechanics ingame are properlyexplained. The forum is the primary means to know what does what. Much of the game mechanics are based on the Tabletop game but there are also points where Legendary-Games took a left turn at the Mountain of Madness changing things to suit themselves by making it more profitable for the developers.

    Ive made suggestions in the past to actually show and explain details ingame like an encyclopedia providing explanations.

    People start this game having fun then get a rude awakening when one of their characters get a permanent injury or dies and the fix it to hand over money to Legendary-Games.
    NgNg and Veteran like this.
  6. TheWizardWatley Major

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    I'm guessing you mean players with no concept of the idea of Mordheim, such as yourself Chaosmunchkin???

    I'm not sure I understand your issues, mate. You have a problem with the fate concept, but as has been stated, and demonstrated by such as myself, you can be successful in the game and enjoy it without spending anything. Top of the shard charts, mate, and I've been stingy to say the least.

    Once again, you raise the issue of suspicious actions by the developers (who do after all have to get food on their plates, they aren't just sitting around doing free stuff just to keep you happy mate). Get over it, we all have a living of a sort to make, or costs to cut. Anyway, nothing can be swiftly fixed, especially in the land of the code, where strings and things get entangled at an almost quantum level.

    Lack of explanation, yeah it can be a pain, also, isn't it more fun learning the hard way? It's only a game, not real life, so the actual risks are minimal, if not virtual.

    The computer games I like to play the most are the ones with little to no tutorial, they chuck you in at the deep end and you sink or swim. Heaps fun, a Challenge. Challenges are fun, it's also how we grow and gain experience. There's no challenge in having everything handed to you in a silver platter, easing you through the hard parts and condescending to the lowest common denominator. Fucking boring mate.

    Problem with your suggestions, my little chaosmunchkin, is that they are largely unrealistic and unproductive. We've attempted to explain to you about programming and the time it takes to fix things properly, but you seem to be not getting it, almost deliberately so as to keep on banging on. If you hadnt noticed, some of the forum crew are working on a wiki (by which I take to mean a virtual encyclopaedia of rules and fluff and stuff) so there is an easy reference point. As for the rest, well, it does seem a little gutless, wanting cheaper items and economics system that suits you, even if the actual game was always like that. Mate, I used to make players roll their OPPONENTS injuries, so as to prevent cheating and also just for the added element of good natured spite.

    Ok, so have you noticed how intensive the game is on your device? There's a lot going on there. Must be an epic clever gaming engine there in the background. The limit is more our devices than the code, tho of course, it isn't perfect. But what is?

    Here's my suggestion. The fate thing isn't going to go away. It's a facet of modern computer gaming as much as holding your hand all the way through is, pandering to the useless turds who can't hack a loss or a little bit of challenging play, and dragging the rest of us down with it. Don't be one of those guys.

    If you don't want to spend real money, don't. It will make the game harder and a lot more challenging. I admit even I have spent a little real cash (and I am a notoriously stingy bunt), just to try out some of the features, but the main part of my grind has been Fateless and Fun.

    The other thing I'd like to suggest is that if not having a reference point for info bothers you, join in. I'm sure Morjax would appreciate the help.

    Finally, if legendary were to condescend to your noise about "imbalanced" economics, the game would very rapidly descend into pitched ranged battles. May as well play Mordheim on the Somme then, eh?
    GrayWhen likes this.
  7. Chaosticket Major

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    boy oh boy, time to get out the Mordheim Rulebook.

    to Start out, for human Mercenaries the recruitment cost of new Warriors or Marksmen is 25 gold, and it never increases. Warriors and Marksmen never have permanent injuries though they can die.

    Warband size for the humans is 3-15.

    Gold income from shards is a bit too complicated for a small space but one Wyrdstone shard in a Warband with 7 members is worth 35 gold, not 19 as per Warband Skirmish.

    Costs of equipment, lets see. Hochland Long Rifle 200gold. Gromril Armor 150 gold.

    Characters start with a wide variety of weapons already available by default. Basically they have Training in nearly every weapon.

    Armor is reduced by the strength value of attacks, which is missing from Warband SKirmish.
    ==============
    So aside from the name Legendary-Games has failed in nearly every regard at making Mordheim.

    So your opinion is that the facts are wrong?

    For you TheWizardWhatley arguing with opinions is why they are opinions, but arguing with facts is delusional.
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  8. ROY Private

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    You can exit the game if you get an out of action. You lose some time, but a lot less than replacing and levelling a guy and his equipment. When your guys get some extra wounds and armor, out of actions seem to happen less.
    I think the game is great. It's a challenge. It does require a different strategy than the original game.
  9. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Not exactly an honourable approach, bro
  10. TheWizardWatley Major

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    And that's your opinion, mate. Take your dissatisfaction with everything about this game and fuck off elsewhere, you whiny little snot.
  11. Veteran Private

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    Hey fanboy, language!
    Please stop insulting people for having a different opinon.
    Are you really such an arrogant sucker?
    So only you know what the true spirit gaming is?
    Come on lad, you can do better than this.
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  12. TheWizardWatley Major

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    It's not about the spirit of gaming, re chaosmunchkin, it's about his constant whining about stuff, not to mention his hijacking my thread with his usual whiny nonsense about costs etc.

    Yeah, I could do better, but it has been suggested a number of times that if this game does not satisfy he could go somewhere else and play something else and leave this game to those of us who enjoy it. He clearly isn't satisfied, but his suggestions are unproductive and unrealistic, and he hasn't taken our good advice and fucked off. (Ooooh language, are you going to die screaming of brain ague because of a nasty word or will you man up and deal with it? The level of my language reflects the level of frustration I feel with the little munchkin)

    Sure, as I've previously said, it's not a perfect game, but none of them are. You guys really need to look at this from a less personally selfish perspective. The legendary team have a lot to do, and I really doubt they are just lying back in yachts sipping champagne and sniffing coke off hookers, which is basically what chaosdouche suggests. Grow the F up, busters.
  13. Veteran Private

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    Fanboy,
    who is we? You and Legendary Games?
    So is Legendary Games now telling gamers/customers to f**k Off?
    See, your shouting and insulting isn't really helpful here, lad.
    Neither is telling other people to grow up when you yourself display such a childish attitude.
    Marquand likes this.
  14. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Vet, lad (lol), if you'd been paying attention, you'd know chaos has been haranguing legendary about all this elsewhere, hijacked my thread with more banter along the same silly lines. Not ok.

    I'm not sure what you mean about the "we", or why you both are trying to turn this into a legendary games bashing session. I don't, and haven't claimed to speak for them, but I sure will speak my mind re pointless or unproductive whinging, and if it comes to the point of trying to get you to see a bit of reason re the developers, to try to support them and encourage a better product, then so be it, I support them.

    Veteran, and chaos, you're deliberately trolling for a reaction now, as far as I can tell, and refusing to address the fact that the game isn't going to change just to suit you both. Be grateful for what you actually have, and that any money you have spent isn't going to one of those massive companies that dominate the industry but to a small independent crew doing it on their own. I mean, how hard does that have to be to understand? Fuck me dead, mate, it is pretty obvious that we all have a good thing going here ( we the players, that is, ok?)
  15. Veteran Private

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    Boy, you're a hopeless cause.
    Marquand likes this.
  16. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Explain.

    (If you're sooking about a word, get over it. I'm not going to change. And it wasn't even addressed toward anyone but myself)
  17. Chaosticket Major

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    Ok You are hopelessly self-righteous. I am "trolling" for providing legitimate criticism over the game flaws providing facts from a rulebook. You call me a Munchkin and call other players "Pussies" for liking different games than you.

    Im going to ask you one of the most important questions I can. Have you ever played the Mordheim tabletop game? It doesnt seem like you have, despite you earlier comments.

    I like Mordheim. Not so much Warband Skirmish, but its a work in progress. Too bad I dont see that progress. My first comment in this thread is about showing the progress. I want to see those random numbers. I want other players that havent played Mordheim before to understand in the actual game how everything works. I would very much like Patch Notes to see what is changed instead of vague updates which have dont almost nothing but make Skaven, but for all I know severely nerf my characters.

    I dislike people that try to turn criticism in whatever Watley has. Its like a child screaming because you said his/her shoelaces are untied.

    This thread has escalated from "oh I like difficult games, but It can be better" to Watley insulting anyone with different opinions.
  18. Frees Private

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    It is not very difficult, cause you can heal and revive your warriors with fate points.
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  19. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Chaos, don't push your luck, bro. If you ever paid attention to anything but your own complaining, you would know that I have played the tabletop, since it's release. Want pics?

    As for opinion vs opinion, which is exactly what this is, I disagree with the issues you have raised. There, better now?

    Once again, I will state that this iteration of the game is, in my opinion, pretty damned great. I wasn't expecting an exact replica of the tabletop, and the way it's been done, to be honest, I quite like. I have had some problems with the game too, but I have provided transparent and constructive information to the team. Furthermore, I understand that it's still their game, so they don't have to pay any attention to my sooking if they don't want to.

    Now, as for insults, I may have laid out a 'nasty' word first, but you guys have been trolling. Deliberate misinterpretation of posts, and attempting to hang your argument on my language rather than an actual rational POV doesn't exactly engender positive reactions, nor will any of this force the designers of the game to change things to how you want it.

    If you want to play old school Mordheim, then all I can suggest is that it's time to crack out the minis and the building and find yourself some friends.
  20. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Exactly. Or not, and take the loss and grind on. It's doable. Take my word for it.

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