PVP 262 Rating defeat 2263 Rating warband without injury is possible

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Shuai The Great, Aug 2, 2018.

  1. Shuai The Great Private

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    PVP 262 Rating defeat 2263 Rating warband without injury is possible in this Update Version.
    8 rats with 16 pistol, All of them have learned Quick Shot, Hidden in the Shadows, Gutter Runner, Infiltration and have 8 wounds, only 262 Rating.
    And all enemy had well-equipment, 2263 Rating.
    The rats waited the enemy into their ambush, and striked quickly, and wiped out all enemy without injury.[IMG]
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  2. Deadhiel Corporal

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    Impressive matchup but it does highlight how broken matchmaking is. Your warband has high level members with endgame (if we can call it that) weapons. With Warpstone count of 689 you've accumulated a ton of gold and experience. My Skaven WB is much lower level (having just started and at rating 182 is almost in the same rating range yet your band would murder me in the blink of an eye.

    My Riek testing WB has two members one range and one melee (with hey armour), both models are under level 7 yet their rating is 162..
  3. Shuai The Great Private

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    Yes, when i another Hired sword of Riek warband upgraded Combat Master, his rating was doubled ! So i think there ars some unbalance things of Rating System in this Version.
  4. Shuai The Great Private

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    These rats guys are just testing the Upgrade & Rating System. My main warband is 3600 rating Risk and 7400 Rating Undead lol.
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  5. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    This is one of the things that I've done with human warbands to keep a lower rating so I could just play with daggers and have a laugh - NOT SPEND SKILL POINTS. This is one of the key issues with the game right now - in the tabletop game and most other games, when you level up you MUST SPEND THAT SKILL POINT. Currently, in Mordheim Warband Skirmish, you don't have to touch them. This means a very powerfulw warband can milk experience from say the campaign missions because they are not advancing in strength overall whereas in the tabletop and other games, you'd have learnt something new and applied it, this would have scaled you up to a higher rating. As it stands you have 19 skill points unspent. the devs should address this and change it so as you can't play another battle until all skill points have been spent. You don't learn new tricks and then not actually apply them only to apply different tricks way down the line.

    The 2nd point is, that dual warplock pistols (I hate that they have a dual one and a normal one, its so frustrating I tried for a time to get a dual-wielder but only found dual pistols no actual warplock pistols, was screwed up) seem to have not been scaled properly for their power with all of the ideal skills, or rather the skills may not have been...but I think it's more a matter of they need to readjust the rating power of the combination of 2 warplock pistols and quickshot plus hide in shadows. I appreciate that heavy armour can be an issue for the skaven and the warplock pistol spam is a very solid way to counter that but this, alongside some other things (like summoned giant rats not actually contributing to the warband rating or rather the spell itself not adding more then a point regardless of its' level (4/4 spells doing nothing rating wise when they should be adding rating at each individual level up regardless of whether a skill got it or a tome/shard did) make the rating system screwed up very, very badly right now.

    A third point is - did you face an ai team or a player in pvp? And that player if irl not AI sounded like a complete scrub from how you described it - your warbands name implies shooting, and very high end reikland shooting warbands you don't run headlong in, you need to bait the hidden characters out to be charged. How do you get to face such high rating warbands in pvp anyway>? The best I've gotten is twice my rating and then only once. I love that underdog xp scales so well like the tabletop game, I'd play a lot more if I had a choice to try and go for higher ranked warbands (I am enjoying the skaven, doinga bare paw fighting approach currently, looking for an ideal statted sorcerer to add to help withd ebuffs and numbers, it's doing quite well considering it has rating 43 with 4 guys).

    Finally, I feel heavy armour is given waaaaaay too much rating buff currently. I had a reiklander warband, 5 strong pre patch with a rating of sub 500 jump to 1900 because they all have gromril armour and full visored helms, sure they have a hochland long rifle and a repeater handgun (neither is fully tooled to take advantage of those skills yet and weapons) but the other 3 have comet mauls (Heavy armour was becoming a serious issue, vampires not being touched using comet mauls to just one shot me...yeah, live and learnt that didn't I), and from the looks of things, that's also what happened here. Skaven do it better than other warbands at this stage - you don't take armour that gives lots of defense. you can take initiative buffing robes that add all of 3 rating and masks that add 0 rating to the characters, you have 1 or 2 defense only but that doesn't matter when you are doing glass cannon builds and know how to focus and engage to your advantage.

    It's really an equipment rating issue. I think that instead of equipment contributing to the warband rating that gold spent should conribute to the warband rating instead, with items in one's inventory stash at camp unused contributing a significantly less amount but still contributing. That way you'd have warbands with equally high equipment costs scaling far better and then it is down to overall strategy and turn by turn tactics to gain the edge and win, as it should be (this would also mean people who spent lots of gold on tomes of magic wouldn't be getting a lessened rating for free spell advances to boot!). Other then equipment rating scaling (flat gold means you, as a player have to think hard about how you approach the game, it will still be fun but you can't just run around naked and suddenly have your warband rating significantly dropped back down where your actual power level as a warband will utterly dominate) combine dwith skill scaling it shpou;ld give a far evener and fairer ratings ystem. Also, if fate was used to heal (whether yous pent rl money or watched an ad for it) or to resurrect a character from death or to hire a hired sword, that fate cost should be factored into a gold price - so for hired swords the gold cost to hire them or the fate cost being equivalent to the gold cost, should contribuite, afterall, more characters means a stronger warband and more high end characters from the start also mean a stronger warband. But as a working example, your warplock pistols usually cost around 185 gold crowns each, for 16 that's 2960 gold. That's gold equivalent to 4 sets of gromril armour, and 5 if they've waited on costs in the trading post to be better. With equipment scaled on gold cost your rating 264 warband would be in the thousands range where it belongs.

    Well done on your win though Shual the Great, it takes nuts-nuts to win-win vs the pink man things when they are so much more powerful then us! But just remember, there are players out there who are very good at the game and this won't always work. :)
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  6. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    And why the heck the forum didn't format my response in paragraphs despite me typing like that I have no idea. Screw you forum formatting on response!
  7. Deadhiel Corporal

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    Holy cow brother, my eyes started bleeding when I saw the wall of text. :) occasional paragraphs would be nice :p
  8. Shuai The Great Private

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    It's been too long. Let me catch my breath o_O
  9. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    Edited it. Shouldn't have had to, I posted it all formatted in the first place and it then went up as a wall o text of doom.
    Shuai The Great and Deadhiel like this.
  10. Shuai The Great Private

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    Nice comment ! I always believe that the Rating System works badly in this Version.
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  11. Shuai The Great Private

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    What about this guy ? One guy equal 7300 rating :eek:


    [IMG]
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  12. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    Howd you get your vampire 1st?
    Like hows your necro second?
    (Off topic but id like to know)
  13. Shuai The Great Private

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    When you have two guys (include the necroman), dismissing the necromance, and the second one will be the first place. And hire another necromance in the crypt
  14. Amaan Shawkath Quality Assurance

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    First off, congrats on the victory. But that match up should not have occured after the PvP rating fixes went in. Could you let me know your Google Play Games/Game Center/Game Circle username and we'll do some further investigation?
  15. Amaan Shawkath Quality Assurance

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    Wowee, that's a lot of text :p You know, you'd make a good beta tester if you're willing to become one, we could use the extra feedback.

    But to answer your questions...

    1. Keeping skill points stashed instead of spending them doesn't give you a competitive edge over your opponent. Since we've moved over to a power rating the equipment you have and the skills you have will make a difference. So, you might have 20 Skill Points stashed on a character but that won't make him any stronger if they aren't used, so the matchups you get you would still be balanced.

    2. We are looking at ways at improving the current ranking system, thanks for pointing those issues with pistols out. I'll be taking a look at them today and we'll be discussing the best way to tackle the issue. Spells are taken into account, do you think they should have more of an impact?


    3. Equipment stored in your inventory shouldn't affect your power rating, they are only taken into account when they are equipped on your character. Did you update it and then get the armour or was it already eqipped before the update? Just the armour alone should not have increased your rating that much.
  16. Shuai The Great Private

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    Y
    Yeah, you are welcome~ my Game Center ID will post you
  17. Deadhiel Corporal

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    Hi Amaan

    Great to see you guys taking everything onboard #ThumbsUp :) Thought I'd address the points as Taak is probably asleep still.

    1/ While storing skill points and not using them gives no benefit, it also keeps us at a rating level where we are competitive, making it possible to keep earning gold and skill points (this only really helps for the first 10-15 levels as the higher you go the higher the xp requirements).

    2/ While equipment needs a rating balance pass, I think spells are pretty balanced for the most part. Firstly facing AI controlled spell casters is very easy (they are dumb and mostly buff or debuff my WB regardless of what spells they possess, followed by charging into melee when a target approaches - even when the target is a melee killing machine.). Secondly, the majority of spells have an inherent randomness with success so even with 96% chance on first cast often leads to failure. Finally the attacking spells either have low Str hits, low range, need to overcome a stat test (or a combination of all three. Which makes using them on high armour targets a risk as is or requiring multiple attempts of casting per target.

    3/ Equipment stored doesn't effect ratings period. Most if not all of us store or horde equipment for later use (when we have skills or need to use them). I only equip higher gear if I want to unlock a newer map, then I drop the equipment and go back to levelling.
  18. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    At this stage I'm just enjoying the game and tryibng to figure out differentw ays to play it. You still get feedback but not in beta. Maybe in the future, but for now, I'm content as is.

    That's where you're wrong though.

    Saved skill points don't increase your skill points or power right then and there, but if you manage your rating effectively, then you can create a warband which can quickly farm experience points, usually against the current campaign system so as you get +1 experience for surviving and +1 experience for underdog. If you approach the AI in the rightw ay then they focus on one warrior each, you can in many cases take enough damage without dying to get to break point and then you just run away (including moving at sprints from combat till you route to keep as many if not all your warriors alive). My current skaven are messing with this here and there, initially 1 assassin and 3 verminkin, I ended up with 5 to 6 skill points on them saved up because I was running in with fists and gettinga kill then taking enough damage from fist or simple hand weapon attacks back to then run away (because knowing how to abuse your low leadership i a skill that a lot of skaven players seem to miss - the tabletop game has this awesome balance where smart gameplay can result in a battle loss but an overall gain far greater then if you played to win and took more damage, and that is doable in Warband Skirmish as well which is awesome). The only reason they spent those points was I found an ideal statted sorcerer and hired him and then had to mess with my raating again. That and I was (and still am) figuring out how the differings kills and equipment combinations affect my rating.

    On the flip side, if I was forced to spend my skill points immediately, it would be far more difficyult for me to gain that competitive edge where I could easily and VERY SAFELY farm large amounts of experience for all my warband fast. Saving the skill points does actually give me a competitive edge, and then it's down to power spiking whenever I feel like it as opposed to being forced to deal with a non-perfect gaming world that is far less able to be abused to get ahead.

    Deadhiel has a good analysis of spells above, but consider this: Mordheim, the tabletop game, had very few spell casters. they are very powerful in the game and that power is balanced by a rarity of one maybe 2 ina warband and only after an extremely long time and a good amount of luck, would people end up with more, assuming they decided to use their limited skill points towards arcane lore and learning lesser magic.

    In Warband Skirmish, some of the more common power build warbands are magic centric witha full 4 warlocks/sorcerers in their ranks and some with leaders also with magic abilities. It's not so much Mordheim but Mageheim at this point because the common warriors are being left behind in favour of magic users, especially at lower levels of warband development.

    As much as I'm gonna hate myself for saying this (and Deadhiel will too though he won't show it here), magic as it stands contributes almost nothing to a warbands rating. You can get a 4/4 gnawdoom and it still only added 1 rating to the warband like when you got the first level of the spell, or zero rating, I can't recall which. Staffs that increase the chances of casting a spell reduce your warband rating by large amounts yet some spells can be utterly devastating especially area of effect spells. Right now, you can run a glass cannon list with spell casters and almost no defense but it doesn't matter because if you play your cards right, you get the alpha strike and you do enough damage with magic to cripple the enemy before they can strike in force. I don't believe the magic system as it stands is flawed in any glaring way it's more that when half a warband plus are magic users, the game is incredibly imblanaced. I've friends who play who don't bother playing pvp because whenever they do and they get the alpha strike off with magic and warriors just die instantly or multiple enemies go out of action before the opponent gets a chance to do anything and then in many cases it's followed up by more knock outs in hand to hand combat, their opponents just quit the game and shut it down to avoid finishing the battle, so they don't bother with pvp. That screams imbalance. One of the things that the tabletop game has as a restriction is that you can never hire more then one of each type of hired sword and not all warbamnds have access to all the hired sword types. It might be worth considering implementing this as a change (but not removing existing players magic users if they have multiples because that woudl suck and probably end up forcing you to lose players), that way magic wouldn't be as prevalent and influential especially early on.

    As an aside, did you know you can make a dwarf slayer (or any dwarf) in the tabletop game pull off a 33" charge (you can get it further with extra shonkiness lol)? You have him on a mule that moves it's 9", the dwarf, knowing lesser magci and the flight of the zimmeran flies 12" from the mule, then uses the magical aptitude skill to cast flight of the zimmerman a second time and land 33" away usually into base to base contact with an enemy (because any movement that has you end in base to base contact counts as a charge - then, because it's a charge, if it's a slayer with high attacks and the double the attacks on the charge skill, you are churning out 8 or 9 attacks very easily from most of the board away. (I may have played Mordheim extensively since it came out and on a competitive level, lik a proper power gaming competitive level (though Mordheim is beautiful because a casaul fluff bunny player can beat a hardcore powergamer just by playing the game, it's very much a game of counters to everything if you know what you are doing and how to tactically adapt to an enemies strategy, I'm usually far better with smaller warbands and have been banned from using Marienburgers in my regular group because I know how to abuse the exploration and trading phases on levels the others don't heh).


    Already equipped when the rating change was implemented.

    See I get the whole equipment stored is only taken into account when you are using it. but again it's a warband rating abuse set up that can be done to gain a competitive edge. Say for example you have a warband of heavily armoured guys that are grinding experience and saving the skill points up because they aren't combatants, theya re marksmen but they have been having issue killing enough people at range to start that they grabbed a dagger and went nuts butchering small warbands to keep gaining skill points to allow the transition to powerfukl ranged weapons gameplay. The armour adds lots of defense and keeps them alive to allpow them to farm experience more easily. theys ave the skill points and when they have enough they get quickshot, hunter, nimble and black powder mastery and then equip an assortment of hochland long rifles, handguns and pistols and take off their heavy armour to keep their rating at a similar level. They have combined saving skill points with rotating equipment to gain a significant competitive edge over all others at their level of rating. One of the easiest ways to do this currently is to just strip armour off of key characters if not everyone. A low defense makes it easier to put you out of action but if you have the damage output to put the enemy out first then it doesn't actually matter. But all that armour that allowed that spike in power and competitive gains now no longer affects the warbands rating at all. I understand and appreciate why but it is an issue and a lot of people are abusing it currently, heck, I know I am. Good value equipment is a mark of success, just like gold in stash and wrydstone shards found and sold also is a mark of the success. Stashed equipment is pretty much stashed rating, and whilst I can agree that yeah sure it shouldn't affect the rating, because people are manipulating their warband ratings up and down because equipment affects stats, and stats are at the heart of the rating system in Warband Skirmish. It's the ability of a player to manipulate their rating up and down that bugs the heck out of me. In Mordheim, your warband only reduced when you lost members of the warband yet it increased as experience and new warband members were added. In Warband Skirmish, we can manipulate it up and down to better suit our own needs and that's what I find...unsettling here.
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