Rat Ogre Poll

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Prabdeep Bazaz, Aug 7, 2018.

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Would you want the Rat Ogre to change to a pet?

Yes 12 vote(s) 70.6%
No 5 vote(s) 29.4%
  1. Prabdeep Bazaz Social Media Manager

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    We have been listening to the community feedback about Rat Ogres over the past few months on how they get left behind in high level warbands. The Legendary Games team have been thinking about making the Rat Ogre a pet for the skaven leader. We are putting this suggestion forward to see what you guys would think of this change.

    To a Skaven player, the Pros and Cons for this are -

    Pros:
    - Cost reduced (Fate and Gold)
    - Extra slot in the warband

    Cons:
    - AI controlled
    - Uses animal/zombie out of action results (no chance of injury but slightly higher chance of death)
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  2. Cypher Corporal

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    He would be acquired via the store like Giant Rats? Would he require any new/extra skills to unlock? Would he be available "out of the gate" or still limited by Warband size (four members to unlock) would he be keyed like the Direwolf or Wardog to "follow" his master (this could have complications for 'stealthy' leaders -- especially in PvP). Would he still be subject to Stupidity?
  3. Prabdeep Bazaz Social Media Manager

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    - The Rat Ogre will be acquired like a Giant Rat
    - No new skills to unlock
    - He’d be available straight away
    - He wouldn’t run away when injured and will stick to close to the assassin
    - Yes, he will be subject to stupidity
  4. Cypher Corporal

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    Would make the Skaven a bit more of a challenge but I like it for flavour and think it would add a nice dynamic. Especially since in the table top they are available initially (if you can afford the pricey fee) and are, after all, "...much in demand as bodyguards to important Skaven."
    Deadhiel and Prabdeep Bazaz like this.
  5. Cypher Corporal

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    It will be a pet for the leader, so limited to one per warband as per the 0-1 in the table top and current setup.
  6. Deadhiel Corporal

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    I love the idea of the RatOgre as a leader pet. As it stands right now, the RatOgre is pretty useless to me. I’m even happier if he stays close to the leader (unlike giant rats who go vaguely in the enemy’s direction). I tried RatOgre’s twice and while functional at low WB levels, becomes irrelevant pretty quickly.
  7. Shangular Corporal

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    Good idea. At least then they'll have some value.
  8. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    No. I'm sorry but as much fun as breaking the game is, if the rat ogre becomes a pet option then so too should Ogre's for everyone else, as opposed to Hired Swords.

    A better option is that the Rat Ogres, and indeed all characters you can hire including starting leaders, start with the max startting stats that they can have. This would standarise it all and make the game actuallyc ompetitive. as it stands rat ogres can spawn with 9 to 15 wounds. 15 wound rat ogres are what you want, so why bother hiring less? Just like when you geta warrior/verminking with 3 or 4 wounds rather then 5, they just get ignored.

    I honestly don't see rat Ogres being made pets, they aren't pets by the fluff and they are a lot more powerful then the average mook warrior, like they should be.
  9. Cypher Corporal

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    I think the main distinguishing features between Rat Ogres and Ogres (in Mordheim) and the idea of making them an "equippable creature" (lets discard the term 'pet') is that in the table top Rat Ogre do not advance, they gain neither experience nor skills while Ogres do.

    This coupled with the facts that they are subject to Stupidity and referenced in the descriptive text of the rule book as "...much in demand as bodyguards to important Skaven" makes them easily viewable as a unit that would be tied to another. On one hand, mechanically, due to needing to be in close proximity to another unit so as not to become subject to Stupidity, and on the other, thematically, as within the established lore they are utilised as personal guards for prominent Skaven.

    I do agree that if made an "equippable creature" akin to the other examples like Zombies, Dire Wolfs and War Dogs they should (and likely would) have a fixed statline that is common to all iterations.

    Also there are many tricky issues that are hard to replicate in the mobile port of this classic game like when certain unit types are available and how many, as well as warband size, and I can see how some differences seem inconsistent, especially given the source material. I also concur from both a "true to the table top" and balance point of view it may seem more judicious to allow Ogres to be available from the start if Rat Ogres (their Skaven counterparts) are to be available, at roughly the same cost in crowns.

    It could also be argued from both a balance and faithfulness position that you should only be allowed one Ogre per warband as all of the Hired Swords were "balanced" per say with being both limited in number to 0-1 and having an upkeep.

    Note: The Oxford Arbiters have made me violently aware that 'equippable' is not, in fact, a 'real word' however for the purposes of this post we are going to go with.
  10. Adam Private

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    Does making them pets solve the complaint? A pet would still fall behind in higher warbands.

    Unless pets scale up with their owners, there is no real point to making the change.
  11. Cypher Corporal

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    It wouldn't take a spot in your Warband hence you could have that place free for another unit that would scale and gain XP, also depending on its cost (in fate/crowns), it would be an early game power bump. I don't have an issue with Rat Ogres not gaining XP because they were one of the few (maybe only?) units in Mordheim that did not gain XP or advance. If you want a large, fast, tough fear causing rat beast (albeit stupid) in you Warband apparently that's the trade off.
  12. Kendofarfar Private

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    I don't think it should. As the balance stands in the tabletop-game most of these creatures are powerful in the beginning and weak late game. And since a large part of warband balance is that they are at different power levels based on how late in the game it is then that entire balance would need a revamp.
  13. Game kNight Private

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    No, but make it worthwhile to get, make it able to equip armor/weapons, like the Ogre - think that would solve it. Having ai units is fine when it is zombies, dogs or rats, but the Rat Ogre i want to be able to control!
  14. Shangular Corporal

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    Pets in general are useless to high level warbands. At that point you have them just for character/role-playing and nothing else. So having this option with the Rat ogre shouldn’t break anything balance wise as they die so easy and do no damage to high defense opponents. But they do look cool.
  15. Auretious Taak Corporal

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    Sorry man, the Rat Ogres don't have weapons. The few that do are from Clan Skyre and the background of Mordheim is that Clan Eshin (one of the major ruling clans/factions of the Skaven) discovered the wrydstone (warpstone to them) in Mordheim and as it is the centre of all of their power they greedily kepty the secret discovery of Mordheim to themselves because if any of the other clans found out then all of Skavendom would converge on the city ina tide BILLIONS strong and no clan would win the power of the warpostone. So only normal, vanilla Rat Ogres are available to the SkavenThe of Clan Eshin. Rat Ogres in Clan Eshin are normal Rat Ogres. THEY ARE A WEAPON. They don't wield weapons and any armour on them is just built into their statline. They have a lot of woudns and are strong and early to mid campaignalways were very hard hitting but, as said above, later on in a campaign, they became ;less powerful because your normal guys had developed massively in skills and equipment and could take them out in a single round of combat one on one in many cases.

    I think one of the major issues is that armour in Warband Skirmish contributes directly towards the resilience stat of the individual unit. Thus, a Rat Ogre can very easily have less toughness thena lowly unskilled marksman with gromril armour and a visored helm. I can hire a rat Ogre right now, he has 15 wounds and 40 toughness. the wounds are huge and 15 is what they should be because even relatively early warriors can hit for 14 damage or more on a lucky crit (usually 14 is the max I've seen that early), but at toughness 40, they get wounded very easily and take damage very fast. I have rieklanders with 70 odd toughness. In the tabletop game, this would have been at best toughness 4 (40 in skirmish) 3 wounds (15 in skirmish) and a 3+ armour save (gromril armour and shield, 4+ if using a 2 hander weapon in combat) presumably it's 30-40 extra resilience in Skirmish. The real question is though, because rat Ogres have no armour save and rely just on their toughness and excessive wounds to become a road block, whether or not the Rat Ogres should have a better ability to increase their tankiness in Skirmish.

    I think this would be the better bet.

    Have them have access to strength and wounds advances such that theyc an scale up to 30 odd wounds. They were toughness 5 in the tabletop and so a Toughness of 50 base would be better here. But being able to have access to 5 strength and 5 wounds advances would allow players to start investing in them in a way to make them do what they are meant to be played - as very resilient, hard to kill, fear causingunits. The Skaven are light footed, fast, sneaky, ninjas. they epitomise the glass cannon approach and currently, massed magic fills a lot of the gaps in numbers and tactical flexibility they had in the tabletop version. You have to remember that each faction plays differently or is meant to. Rat Ogres don't have equipment, but they are meant to fill a fear causing tank position in the warband. So adding the ability to add 5 extra wounds and strength advances brings them up to a point where whilst their raw toughness doesn't increase, the damage they can tank is significantly larger then anything else in the game. This would not detract from the Vampire who can get to absurd toughness levels and strength levels with equippable equipment - something the Rat Ogre should not be allowed to do.

    Thoughts everyone?
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  16. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    I personally think this is a perfect fix.
    I have never used skaven but come up against rat ogres a couple times,
    I used to fear them now i am happy at the sight of them.

    But if they were one of the bulkiest units on the battlefeild at all times,
    Whilst maybe not a instant threat, my vamp (or whomeger is my go to warrior) would have to be commited 1 or 2 turns just to take him down, allowing the other skaven to move around and flank and be sneaky.
    It adds more depth to the skaven, which i am all for.
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  17. Arnold Private

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    With my first skaven warband, i bought a rat oger and loved it ... a time. Like in the old tabletop, they are great, 3 attacks, cause fear, stupidity can be handled through manoveur, strengh 5, lots of thougness and wounds, a killer.

    But also in the tabletop, there was the problem that the rat oger neither get xp nor equip. And i played lots of games more with my warband, so very soon the rat oger was only crap that was killed fastly by much tougher enemies with twohanders and in gromil armour. So sad, 8 fate points down the toilett.

    In my second skaven warband there is no ratoger, and there is no rat oger in any of the warbands with a vallue of 4000 Points +.

    So, time for a change. But your solution would not bring more rat ogres to the game. In higher levels, they are nearly as useless as giant rats, especially if they are randomly moved by the computer. They will be shoot out or slashed very soon.

    If you want rat ogres in high level skaven warbands, they need XP and equip.

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