Rating management

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Cyberaddict, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Cyberaddict Major

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    What's the best you've achieved in term of rating management?

    I've found that it is a lot easier to manage warband rating with a ranged team, than a melee one. One of my Skaven team is at 463 (1089 shards), average level of Verminkins (6) and Sorcerer is 22, and Assassin is at 29. Sorcerer is mainly there to debuff tanks with its Curse, while the rest of the team just shoot Throwing Stars from the shadows, or at the closest range possible (right next to target is better for to hit % and damage results). Attacking this way completely circumvent the Skaven's flaw : poor Leadership means they can't melee target a Fear causing ennemy (but running next to it to shoot stars is fine). This team usually breaks opposition twice stronger in 2-3 turns, without any losses (just *wiped* an 850 team of tanks + ogre). It's great because I can attack and stay hidden, and deal more than 20 damage per turn on average against heavily armored opponents (double or triple that against others).

    I have another team of Skaven at 433 (175 shards), that I've just built up. Captain is level 15, average level of the rest is 10. So about the same rating, but one fifth the shards and half the levels. They're specialised in The Art of Silent Death (unarmed attacks), and they're quite good... except against Fear causing ennemies (I've been training a few in Fearsome, lately). But it feels this team will always be vulnerable compared to the other. To get any better, I'd have to get extra attacks (2 each already thanks to Silent Death), but this will push my rating to the roof, and I barely have a PVP win ratio of 60-75% (while my Stars team is at 99.99%).

    Conclusion : Rating can be easily managed by ranged units, to get abusively strong compared to opposition (along with bonus experience and lesser chance of injuries).
  2. CzaRus Major

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    That is true. Ranged is generally both more forgiving and easier. You need some experience and many tines some numerical advantage to beat pure ranged vs pure melee, especially as low as 500. Unless the map or mode strongly favours melee, ranged will mostly win.
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  3. Algirdas25 Major

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    laght in pistols
  4. Cyberaddict Major

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  5. Algirdas25 Major

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    pistol dont give much raiting ,and still you can deal a lot of damage with them ,
  6. Cyberaddict Major

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    Fair enough. I don’t use pistols much, so I don’t know how much they impact on rating.

    I’ve renamed my Skaven Warband with Throwing Stars this morning : « The Undefeated » (previously « Hush Hush Die Die »). I’ve yet to find my match (I only play vs AI to unlock a new location ; otherwise, I always play 100% PVP). An Ambushed Ogre was put Out Of Action in one of my PVP match, by *2* shurikens (no more) that dealt 14 damage (during opponent’s turn). Dwarves couldn’t even reveal my Skaven from the shadows, even while standing right next to them. Opponent must have been pissed of really bad. :)

    The TLPR (Total Levels Per 100 Rating) of The Undefeated is 39.46 (189 on 479 ; indecently high), if that is any indication of concentrated power, or rating management. I compare this to my other Warbands :
    - Sisters of the Blinding Light at 23.46 (167 on 712 ; close to the sweet spot, but a bit too high because of Matriarch with Dual Hammers).
    - League of Justice (Ranged Marienburgers) at 21.27 (274 on 1288 ; rating went out of control when I switched from Elf Bow to Rifle w/ Scope... otherwise, it must have been closer to 30 ; needless to say, I stopped having fun with this Warband when its TLPR dropped).
    - Rat Jiutsu Dojo (Melee Skaven) at 20.55 (89 on 433 ; rating immediately jumped, right from the start, because all units have 2 Attacks with The Art of Silent Death and fighting Unarmed ; because of this very bad management of rating, most encounters are very difficult and my win rate with this Warband is embarrassingly low). :(
  7. Erkebrand Major

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    Hmmm, the concept you called TLPR just shows how some passive skills doesn't count much for the rating, I also have a skaven band with 4 guys working with shurikens and they deal great damage with a very low rating, the main reason is cause as yours they have all the initiative skills unlocked, same with the towing weapons skills, and they don't give much rating.(tail fighting is a must have, it doesn't give much rating)

    Throwing stars doesn't give much rating, I think just because of their range, they have some disadvantages, they are useless if your enemies get into combat. About rating same happens with pistols, and they work really nice, and the skaven pistols are the best ones in game. When the ranged weapons get more effective range they get a lot of score.

    Your shurikens will deal impressive damage at the ratings you will find, but once you start finding real tanks with nice skills, elven cloacks etc you'll find some troubles, but if t you don't rise up attacks this is not going to happen soon. I have 3 warriors on my skaven band with melee focused skills just with the purpose of rising the rating and having some fun. The balance of the skills and weapons may need some updates, specially with ranged and some passive skills. It would be awesome if we could see how much rating gives each skill/item to our warriors, but I think this is not going to happen soon.
  8. Cyberaddict Major

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    You are right. Maybe it's time for the Developpers to fix some skills and weapons, and give them a higher value.

    BTW, I have met already real tanks (Gromril armor is pretty obvious, as is the shimmer from Elven Cloak). Some tanks were at just 27% to hit, even running up to point-blank distance (900+ rating). No matter, with 21 attacks (7 Skaven x 3 shurikens) and opponent suffering from -45 to Defense (-30 from Sorcerer's Curse and -15 from Perfect Killer skill), I usually can deal with tanks in a single round or less, very rarely needing to overlap with a few hits in a second round using the alpha strike strategy. Thing is, I have 50% Criticals, and this is a huge boost to damage. Next goal is to get Crits at 65%, with Art of Silent Death and go bare-handed in my right hand. This will also increase Initiative and Melee Attacks, and thus my rating. I'll see then how I fare against tougher opponents.

    Anyway, I still think TLPR is a good gauge of how easily you can defeat opposition in PVP. A well managed rating will create more favorable matchups. I always find it funny to see a 600 Warband with a Scoped Rifle or two, and Captain with 3 Attacks. I know then rating is inflated and it will be a piece of cake. :)
  9. Shangular Brigadier

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    Skaven have the easiest time to compact their ratings because the rating system imo doesn't accurately reflect all skill improvements equally (some are overrated some underrated). There is a good build where you focus on speed skills and some shooting, taking advantage of the warplock pistols that is very effective in low ratings.

    The current rating system can be good but I think difficult to calibrate correctly. I know it's had several tweaks but yet still not correct, imo anyways. So rating isn't necessarily the best indicator of how good a warband is (some examples mentioned above prove this point).

    When this current rating system was released, it was heavily melee focused, i.e. melee skills had high rating impact. For example when it first came out, Combat Master gave an enormous rating increase. Now it is 0. I don't think 0 is the correct number though. I noticed at that time my Middenheimers who got to a 13,000 rating. Today they're at 8,000 albeit they have 3 elves now. But you can see the fluctuation of how Legendary has tried to calibrate the rating system.

    My preference, would be the old rating system which matchesTT version system where rating is based on the XP of the warband. This way we don't have to argue, is this skill underrated? Is that skill overrated, etc. Each player at the equivalent XP level has the same amount of skill points that they can choose to allocate and how well they allocate determinates their warband's effectiveness. Imo this is probably the fairest way to match up warbands.
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  10. Enajien Major

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    No matter how you do a rating system we will have to manage our ratings. TT was no different where you just got a flat X rating per model +1 per xp. As such gear ruled the day, you got a second attack from an off hand as fast as possible on all models even if it was a dagger. You fired henchmen with bad levels to lower rating and restart. You would spam henchmen until you got your bs or attack upgrade then beefed out that group and fired the others. etc. I don't think it really matters how you do rating so long as it's consistent.
  11. Shangular Brigadier

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    Agree that either rating system used can work, but the problem is the current one doesn't have the most accurate weighting for skills as you can see certain options to compress your rating as some skills are incorrectly valued. One reason why Skaven are good at low levels is because they can take advantage of this (I have a Skaven warband too and I take advantage of this) Combat Master being 0? It shouldn't be excessively high as before but definitely worth more than 0, warlock pistols being weighted low? etc.

    The previous system which mirrored TT seems to create more equality. For example let's say its a matchup between 2 solo mercenary captain warbands. Both are Level 30 and have the same equipement. The old way they'd have the same rating. The current way, one captain may have an artificially higher rating because of a misweighting of a select skill. What entails is then that artificially higher warband may forego the +1 XP for surviving and equal rated warband and the other artificially lower warband gets the unfair advantage of having a lower probability to receiving injured or dying results and potentially an undeserved underdog bonus.
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  12. Cyberaddict Major

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    I agree with Shangular. My current Skaven Warband, The Undefeated, totally abuse that concept : I get that +1 experience, less chance of suffering injuries, while utterly destroying an opposition that will suffer real casualties. Hey, today, in PvP defend the Center scenario, I skipped then rushed opponent end of turn 1. When I was done attacking on turn 2, that 900 Dwarves team was wiped out (even heavily armoured against my 550 team ; hey, some of my Rats do more than 10 damage per turn). Fun for me, but seriously not fun at all for opponent. IIRC, there was one dead and two injured results...
  13. Jesse Shaffer Brigadier

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    One thing they could do which would help both new and veteran players alike would be to display the potential rating impact of an unlearned skill on the skill card itself.

    Skill Card.jpg
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  14. Cyberaddict Major

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    I like this, but this wouldn’t solve the big discrepancy between ranged and melee skills. Either melee are overrated, or ranged are underrated... but something is definitely wrong.
  15. CzaRus Major

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    I miss lots of old stuff, not just rating. Remember sniper-sentries with reaction shot to EVERY single opponent that moved? And reaction attack on every single lower I opponent that charged you?That was amazing.
  16. Cyberaddict Major

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    I don’t remember that time. But these triggers seem overly powerful to me!
  17. CzaRus Major

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    Reikland used to have speed skills as well
  18. Algirdas25 Major

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    good old times when you didnt use any hired swords
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  19. Cyberaddict Major

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    Just for the record, I want to deeply thanks the player piloting the Warband named Linx Partinus, or something like that. His team at 1100 was first defeated by my Skaven, The Undefeated (575). I killed his Captain and injured a Warrior, but he managed the very rare feat of putting one of my Rat down (who fully recovered as, obviously, I had lesser chances of injuries).

    Opponent must have spent Fate to revive and heal, cause I met him immediately after for a rematch, but not before I renamed my Skaven « Literally Undefeated ». He took that as a challenge. :)

    He was more careful this time, but I managed to put Out Of Action 3 of his 4 units (all Reikland tanks), but he kept succeeding his Leadership roll and would not be routed (only one unit down on my side, at that point). Only his Mage-Tank remained (with higher Initiative than any on my team) and he had the Treasure. I blocked the way to the exit, and we played cat and mouse for a couple of turns before he finally succeeded casting Flight of Zimmerman (he already had Sword of Rezhebel). Not enough to fly to the exit, but enough to close in with my team and engage in melee.

    That is nightmare for my team, because it completely disables my other units who can’t throw Shurikens. So I had to disengage with the two units he was fighting, both fell from Lightning Reflexes, before finally I could shoot Stars with the rest of the pack. It wasn’t enough however, and I had to form a wall next turn to prevent him fleeing with the Treasure (and me losing my title of Undefeated), and pray he won’t succeed flying away. He didn’t, engaged again two units in melee, I disengaged and lost again 2 units to Lightning Reflexes, and FINALLY, on the ***15th turn***, and with only 3 Skaven left standing, I succeeded at putting him Out of Action (about 3 squares away from the exit). :)

    Because of lesser chance of injuries, all my units recovered... except for the one who got Horrible Scars and can now cause Fear. :)

    This was the hardest and longest game I’ve fought with this team in a while (used to win on turn 3 or 4). Totally worthy opponent, but again this underline how unbalanced the rating system is. My 575 team was a true challenge for his 1100 team. He fought like a beast, for 15 rounds, but it wasn’t enough.

    BTW, robes instead of armor would have helped him fly in, but he would have only fell sooner to my attacks. Armorless units are so squishy, I can hit them for up to 24 damage per round with my Assassin (and 18 with my other units). A single Ambush is often enough to kill them.
  20. Shangular Brigadier

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    I think I faced your skaven a few times yesterday with one of my older Reikland warbands, who was actually the first solo captain I had before I knew the mechanics of the game (i.e. his starting stats was only like 31 WS and 27 Str, yes he can't get Fearsome but I didn' know it when I first started playing lol). I dug him up to find PVP opponents as my other warbands are having a hard time getting matchups due to rating. But GF to all the matches was lots of fun!

    My concern with how the game is set up with ratings management is that it somewhat encourages you not to develop your warband unless you don't care about PVP matches. For example, I did create 2 new warbands back in late March and they used to get tons of PVP matches but know since both are over 1,500 its hard to find opponents. However, I want to develop these warbands and not just forsake recruitment and skills just to keep rating down. So it becomes a balancing act. I wished Legendary would make the change where when you que PVP to theshhold based:

    1) 200: There is a 200 point threshold where only warbands between 1 - 200 can fight each other. This is designed for new players to introduce them to PVP and let them learn the basics.

    2) Over 200, it's a free for all of who could can match up with. Yes, you may be at 500 and get a 5,000 opponent, but that could encourage you to develop your warband more. The 500 warband would get a +10 underdog bonus and probably be injury free so it's not necessairy a bad thing. Also as we've mentioned about, rating isn't necessarily an accurate description of a warband's fighting capability. For example, my Reikland solo cap is about 700 rating. If I were to arm him with a sniper rifle, the rating jumps to 1,400. Does a sniper rifle make him twice as good? Hell no!

    One thing I recently did for my Possessed warband to lower rating and to PVP matches without dismissing anyone was to let some of my members die intentionally. This works to get more matches. But then leads to ask Legendary to create an Active/Inactive toggle for each warrior which would lead to the same effect. Charge 3 Fate per warrior for this option. It's the same as letting one of your warriors die and not reviving but will save the player time from intentionally getting his warrior killed.
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