Rating needs to be fixed, like, yesterday

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Cyberaddict, Jun 17, 2020.

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Do you think the rating system needs to be fixed?

Yes, ASAP - it's a real problem 6 vote(s) 66.7%
Yes, but not top priority 2 vote(s) 22.2%
No, I sincerely think it's fine 1 vote(s) 11.1%
No, because I like abusing it 0 vote(s) 0.0%
  1. Shangular Brigadier

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    Sorry, no I don't like that idea. PVP is already optional today so if you don't want to PVP you don't have to. I'd hate to have to develop 2 of the same types of warband. I prefer to use AI to test theories and tactics that I can then use in PVP with the same warband.
  2. Cyberaddict Major

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    You are soooo right.

    What I realise, is that the power curve is exponential at first, and then it slows down a lot. Would it make sense, in a system where 1 level = 1 rating value, that all levels between 5 and 15 are worth double? Just throwing that idea in the air. Maybe it is quite dumb.
  3. Cyberaddict Major

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    About the skills and spells that need fixing...

    Unstoppable Charge bonus of +15 WS should only apply until end of that unit’s turn. It shouldn’t linger for the rest of the turn, as a bonus to defense against incoming melee attacks. This is an exploit, because the skill was never intended to be used defensively (not in the description, not in the concept).

    And Sword of Rezhebel bonus of +20 WS can be nerfed to +10, for all I care.

    Two units at peak condition could have 65 WS, and thus normally 50% of hitting each other. Add in the Sword Spell, Unstoppable Charge and Pit Fighter, and the odds become 90% to hit for the spell caster, and 10% to hit for the fair player. Plus flying to escape away, and make certain all attacks are charges, some units are pretty much unbeatable, NO MATTER THE STRATEGY (and my opponent was not even skipping turn with higher Initiative).

    I don’t know how this can be fixed, or if it should be. But the feeling of being presented with these impossible odds is not pleasant at all. Of course, I could have Pit Fighter skill too, but the odds would only be down to 85/15.

    With the proposed fixes on Unstoppable Charge and Sword Spell (and if both units have Pit Fighter), the odds would be 75/40. Still very much in favor of the spell slinger, but they wouldn’t feel unbeatable. As it is, I consider the combo an exploit that needs fixing.
  4. Erkebrand Major

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    Flaming sword is designed for warlocks with their low WS, they don't have unstoppable charge option, and they need this spell to be useful.

    About unstoppable charge I'm agree, should be just for attacking, not for defense
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  5. Shangular Brigadier

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    Nope, that strategy is beatable. Pretty much all strategies are. Some are tougher to beat than others but none are unbeatable. For a wiz captain or warlock to fly away and hit and run means that the opponent was out maneuvered and allows the captain to charge without using Flight first or failed to kill him in one round and let the captain fly away in the following round.

    General solutions:
    1) Stay far enough away where the captain or walock can't just run in charge and fly away.

    2) When you attack the captain, make sure you're able to kill him in on round, coordinate your warriors's attacks to best ensure this. If warlock, even easier since all you have to do is stun.

    Also these solutions are much easier to execute if you have a full warband, thus also making the case that a solo warband is a non-issue.

    EDIT: Wanted to note a couple of things. Even if a captain is immune to stun, if you do enough damage to get him to a stun level, he won't be stunned but will lose his ability to cast spells and thus fly away.

    Also on thing to consider in this thread is the warband composition. Some players like to run wacky or themed warbands to their imagination for fun. These are just that, meant to be fun and not competitive. So if a person playing a wacky warband goes against a competitive warband build, the wacky warband will most likely lose because it will have difficulty executing tactics designed for a balanced or competitive warband. For example if someone were to run an all melee Reikland warband with 4 trollslayers. That player shouldn't complain when losing against a competitive build.
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  6. CzaRus Major

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    Of course, nerfing half useless spell (only potent at below 1000 and then only against Skaven and Possessed) will make everything well and nice. NERF ELVES, not Lesser Magic. If you suck at positioning, your fault Oh, and Fire sword gives no D debuffs, so you will pretty much hit nothing most of the time against 70+beasts. By the way, Unstoppable charge doesn't apply to 1st attack (according to hit chance), that is worth fixing, not the defensive side of thing which makes sence - the same turn you move with it the same turn enemy responds, so no trouble imo. Why nerfing Lesser Magic seems to be the goal of your existance? And there is nothing like unfair builds, Shangular explains it well.
    Got no problem with fixing the rating into the old ways, but the priorities should be fixing 3rd floor bugs (I found another one - or better said I am going to document it first) and rebalancing hired swords at the very least.
    I'm honestly pretty tired, and done with this discussion, at least here. Might debate it on discord.
  7. Cyberaddict Major

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    I don’t know why you assume I suck at positioning. I’m actually good enough at it to force opponent to fly before attacking, so I could strike back (so that’s your tip #1). But with 10% hit chances, even with maxed WS and Crimson Shade, how am I suppose to kill the opponent in one turn (your tip #2 ; note that I managed to attack one turn with all my units)? Maybe another Warband, built for range, could have defeated that strategy. But my Sisters just had zero solution... Unless I get Unstoppable Charge and Pit Fighter myself to get 30% hit chance? So be it. But it just feels so wrong to have maxed WS and be presented with impossible odds.

    About Sword of Rezhebel... Would it make sense to nerf the WS bonus, but buff it with Defence penalty so it can penetrate armor? For certain units, that +20 WS is overkill a lot, IMHO. But that spell certainly needs some buff to make it good at higher levels.
  8. Shangular Brigadier

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    I’m not saying you’re bad at positioning. I was only reply to part where you state that there no strategy against it when I believe there is. If the opponent has max WS and your warrior doesn’t that is a build issue not an imbalance issue with Flight. So let’s say you both have max WS. The difference is only 15. But again it’s who gets the first charge.

    Now tactics wise to kill a solo use multiple warriors attacking in same turn. Remember solo flyers wear robes to low defense. Very susceptible to pistols or shooting prior to entering combat. Bottom line there is a strategy against it.
  9. Cyberaddict Major

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    At 10% hit chance, it means that I have 1% chance of doing 1 damage (the odds of doing more are less than that), and 99% chance of doing 0. Like I said, on one round, I was able to attack with all Sisters. But with odds like that, it really feels like being dealt a losing hand from the start, no matter how hard you try, how good you are at positioning, and how much you can gang up on the target.

    Yes, I could have defeated that opponent, but not with the Warband I had at the moment. With a different build. Like you said, pistols and range attacks could have done it (why I’ve invested in that Elven Witch Hunters Warband). But haven’t we already agreed that Pistoliers and Range attacks at large were OP in the current rating system? So... unfair can beat unfair. I get it. It can be done indeed, but by a Warband that will totally terrorize the ladder. And the goal of this thread is to fix the system that intrinsically pushes away noobs from the game the moment they hit PvP.

    That, CzaRus, is my goal with this thread. Not nerfing Lesser Magic. I stated quite explicitly in the opening post, and numerous times since then, that Pistoliers and Range need to be fixed, too. But because we don’t know how the rating system works at all, the only metrics that I have to work with at * this time * are mainly those of Lesser Magic. My complaints are concentrated on that subject for the moment because I have nothing tangible to say about the other problems that badly need to be fixed as well.

    I’m sincerely sorry if it bothers you. I’m going to try to tone it down, really. But the problem is still there and won’t go away. You may sit comfortably on the OP mechanics that you don’t want to let go, and LG may well do nothing to fix the system because it doesn’t want to frustrate its hardcore players. But it’s pretty obvious to me that the players base is not expanding, and will start eroding eventually. My belief is that we all have a role to play in solving (or not) this problem, and mine was this thread.

    Just please remember that my goal is not my personal comfort at playing this game, but fixing the imbalances that prevent players from staying addicted to the game after they’ve tried, with much frustration, the PvP ladder.
  10. Erkebrand Major

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    Rating needs to be fixed. The entire thread of 4 pages has diluted the main idea by speaking of OP combos, instead of speaking how this could be done, the skills need a rating increase or the ones needing a decrease. The thread started well with some kind of new rating suggestion witch may work with some modifications. Creating a new thread is free on this forum, so if it's for speaking about anything else than fixing the rating it should go on other place, not here, cause as I said time ago the objective is far away from getting real.
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  11. Shangular Brigadier

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    Agree, focusing on rating weights is the best instead of trying to tweak or adjust current skills and abilities. The key skill focused on in this thread is Flight which functions just fine as is and as intended, no exploit such as the blunderbuss where you can get an 8+8 range. If you look at my very first post on this thread, I tried to isolate the 2 topics. But what we have to be careful in how we do adjust ratings is that we need to isolate how much of the issue is the actual rating weight of the skill or equipment vs player selection of skill progression.

    The example above is a good one where its mentioned that the warrior only had a 10% chance to hit. That is a user choice of not deciding to improve the WS as a first priority. Nothing wrong with it but there could be gameplay disadvantages depending on which skills you decide to invest in first. In the above, nothing is wrong with the rating system. Pistols and range was just one example, but you could have multiple people attack with melee who have invested in WS tool.

    For pistols, I think the weighting issue is more on the warplocks because they give the -50 defense modifier and if skaven has perfect killer, it becomes -65. The normal pistols aren't too off because if you're targeting an opponent wearing gromil, you'll find that its not OP. Against a wizard captain wearing robes, yes, because robes don't give any defense. Warplocks negate armor completely.
  12. Cyberaddict Major

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    I'm sorry, but I said multiple times that my unit had MAXED WEAPON SKILL (at 65, that's 8 levels out of 8). I had 10% hit chances because my opponent was also maxed at 65, had Pit Fighter (+10), Unstoppable Charge (+15, effect lingers after the attacks) and Sword of Rezhebel (+20 ; total WS of 110 ; spread of 45 means the hit chances are 50 - 45 = 5, but no less than 10%).

    I did not badly managed my team, and made WS a top priority. I hope this clears things up, because I feel, from reading your last post, that you didn't understood that my WS was also maxed. I doubt this would change your opinion on the subject, but facts are facts, and my WS was maxed, and still the best shot I had (with a well positioned team, all units could attack together) was only at 10%. This, I repeat, is 99% chance of dealing 0 damage, according to Combat Mechanics.

    Of course, if my team of 5 is rated 300 (average level 19-20) and my opponent has a rating of 550 on a single unit (that's what, 50-60 levels?), then I didn't have the time or luxury to take the two skills that would have helped (Pit Fighter and Unstoppable Charge). Which brings us back to the main subject of the rating system, and the imbalances of it in PvP ladder (and the very little number of players in the queue that could make the matchmaking more fair ; and here I see a clear relationship between low trafic and current unfair system).

    But I'll drop the subject until we get to know how the current system functions. I've filed my complaints and there's not much more to say on the subject. I wish the conversation could be more constructive, but for that we need the details of the mechanics.
  13. Cyberaddict Major

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  14. Mork Corporal

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    Hi - following this thread it became not quite clear to me, if unspent XPs nevertheless increase the power-ranking or not ?
    In general I observed only an increase by learning a new skill, not by only reaching a new level. But recently I observed an increase of my power-ranking that I couldn´t explain.
  15. Shangular Brigadier

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    Unspent skill points do not impact your rating.
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