Skaven...

Discussion in 'Open Discussion' started by Marquand, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Marquand Major

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    I purchased skaven an hour ago. These are my first impressions.

    Movement is great. Man, they move fast.

    Their profiles are extremely weak. Verminkin are basically human marksmen with lower BS, lower WS, same S, half the leadership, initiative about 40+ and +1M. They cost 20% less than human warriors.

    I had to start a new warband 10+ times to get a leader with 5W. His starting stats vary greatly as usual. He starts with "perfect killer" skill just like in tabletop (-15 enemy def). He also has sprint so moves at 6. My leader has 35S..... but I noticed it already includes Strenght increase! So only two strenght increases left. BTW skaven has no strenght skill - only S and W increase.

    Weapons... They seem weak also. So far I have found only two that offer S increase: flail and helbard. Helbard is the same as imperial one - S+5(10). Flail gives S+20 after weapon mastery. Lots of skaven weapons and shields have parry increases. Saw weeping blades once they look good (A,crit and parry increase).Warning! Almost every skaven weapon requires mastery. Otherwise they give almost nothing t the start.

    Armour is weak, what I've seen was equal to brigandine or lower, I guess there are other suits. Best helmet I have seen had +7arm.

    Shooting weapons: 2 types of stars (can't recall the difference, mayby range), throwing knife, in tutorial skaven "tutor" has pistol (warplock?) and of course slings.

    Had 1 battle vs reikland, my 3 rats were miserably outmatched by 3 humans. My close combat henchmen had 30% chance to hit!!!! wth? they were doing one dmg per attack, reiklander with spear (not cpt) dealt 3 per attack, so the others humans. Somehow I managed to stunn the leader and kill 2 warriors but.... even with all my rats alive, I fled!

    Generally I'm disappointed. It's not my final verdict because I want to try some few more battles but...damn. I was expecting something more. I totally can't imagine skaven in the later campaign where there's lot of armour.

    BTW assassin adept was amongst one of the most impressive starting leaders in mordheim (in factthe other was the vampire) here... he's WEAK!
  2. Chaosticket Major

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    With no way to actually test out Skaven before paying this is a big help Id probably immediately ask for a refund even before I saw this.

    Skaven in Mordheim are sort of broken because theyre the zerg faction in a game that makes spamming effective.

    Warband skimish is inverted to anti-spam. It wants you to upgrade characters to be broken with Full Plate armor and Hochland Long Rifles. If skaven cant do that then what the point?
  3. Ewan Lamont
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    What aspects were you disappointed by? They reflect the warband from the book exactly. They have a different play style to the mercenaries: the adept is strong but the individual warriors are slightly weaker than mercenaries, which is reflected in the price, they are faster, sneakier and have some sick special skills like infiltrate, black hunger and tail fighting. Just like the table top skaven are fast aggressive and dish out a lot of punishment but can't take it and will squirt the musk of fear if they don't quickly over power the foe
  4. Chaosticket Major

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    Uh no. Skaven are actually min-maxed humans. Rulebook wise even the basic skaven had a higher movement rate which no one could increase. Initiative there is a lot more useful as that meant in combat they would usually get free attacks in...basically meaning they would have Lightning Reflexes for free here. The trade off is -2(0) leadership which still leaves them with 50 and their leader still has 70.

    Original Skaven's greatest strength was numbers. They could have more heroes, more henchmen, and a higher maximum number and all your characters being solid. None of that can be presented here unless you want to show about 15 skaven with slings hitting 50% of the time versus half that number of humans with Handguns.

    Now thats Original Mordheim skaven. I think Im just getting into a rant at this point now that someone finally confirmed my fears of skaven failing.

    So did they program in Black Skaven using strength skills? Giant rats worth 15 gold? How about Rate Ogres? Are those mercenaries
    Marquand likes this.
  5. Marquand Major

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    ^This!
    No sir, they don't.
    Tabletop skaven were basically humans with of M5 and I and LD5 on henchmen (and as Chaosticket mentioned leader still had 7). First two made a cosmic difference because you could move faster than ANYTHING and your basic henches struck before almost anything bar some leaders and heroes from other warbands. It made skaven much better in close combat than humans (especially since I see no difference between human and skaven WS3) who were almost always outnumbered thanks to skaven's low cost. Henchmen equipment was very limited. True. But skaven had greater income thanks to 6 heroes and low henchmen cost (replenishing loses and expanding the warband). You didn't need super equipment in Mordheim. You needed bodies and attacks - true power of the skaven. And by mordheim qualities charging first and striking first in numbers was king. Leadership only came to play in rout (and you don't have to win battles in campaign to lead), when fighting undead, possessed and carnival (why should you fight them if you can just shoot them with slings or charge non fear causing models?). About the adept: he should start with S at least 40+ WITHOUT S increase if we go by tabletop standards.

    Also slings are worth mentioning - they costed 2gc had better range than shortbow and every warband member could take them except beasts.
    They are definitely not worth it here (in warband skirmish) and only leader can take it. It's not even funny.

    Now... Skaven heroes. You had 6 of them 3 of witch had ultra elite stats: WS4, S4, I5, M6. Most warbands (humans) would work very hard to get that profile - and did I mention that assassin adept and black skaven were same cost as mercenary captain and champions?
    Add to that good equipment and henchshields and you reigned.

    What's in the game:
    Definitely weaker-than-humans warriors (only one warrior type - verminkin) with very limited weapon selection that gives almost no bonuses without weapon mastery.

    Compare expensive weeping blades with, for example, cutlass. What do you get with no weapon mastery when wielding weeping blades? Nothing. What do you get when you have a cutlass? +10 to crit, +10 to parry. Which doubles with mastery. And cutlass costs a fraction what weeping blades cost. Skaven have almost no S increasing weapons while mercenaries have them in abundance. Great weapons of different kind (10 if I count good) and helbards. And always one of a kind was present in the store. Skaven have only flail and helbard (that's what I have seen).

    I have some question:
    - How skaven are to deal with high armour later on? They are weaker, have no access to S skills and assassin (who's not as strong) has already one S increase included.

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with fear? You see, fear in Mordheim affects you for one round only, in Warband Skirmish it works every round.

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with strong shooting warbands? Because in later "campaign" marksmen detect you from half across the board and sneaking WILL NOT WORK. Which leads us to:

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with incoming damage? Their starting wounds are suspicioulsy low, you have to hunt for 5 wounds for several post battles (and it's often a trade off because W5 warriors have worse than human marksman stats, initiative included!). Also I haven't seen anything stronger than 15 (or 17) armour in the store. I understand this is the start but even with starting mercenry warbands you got a glimpse of cuirass, skull cuirass, heavy breastplate or even full plate at the start of the warband.

    Also with such number of new weapons it would be worthy to update skill texts becasue you can only guess what weapon mastery you need for certain weapons.

    I don't like these skaven. And I'm not sure how can you fix them.
  6. Chaosticket Major

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    So not only are they equal in numbers to human and lacking in Black Skaven, Giant Rats, and Rat Ogres but they already have a very low cap on weapons and armor?

    I dont know how any warband would be able to survive without either massive durable shock troops or Hochland Long Rifles. Fear was one of the major weaknesses of Original Skaven as trying to get a 5 or lower on a 2d6 wasnt easy, but that only happened on Charging.

    So right there you have easy counters to Skaven. Armor, fear, shooting, and two-handed weapons...wait what were skaven supposed to be again? It just sounds like their supposed to be fast losers.
  7. Marquand Major

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    Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-42.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-50.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-30.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-39.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-36.png
    Ok, I've spent some times playing (about 14 battles + studying the equipment, stats etc) and with clean conscience I can say that skaven are rubbish. When compared to human Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-48.png s:

    - They are way weaker in stats except I (not always) and M. 5 starting wounds is very rare. Even more when you want "good" other stats.

    - They literally can't have more armour than 30 and that's if you take armour and shield which will reduce their only advantage (movement)

    - Verminkin (the only warrior available) cannot take ANY shooting weapons. You thought you'll take slings, stars,knives and pistols didn't you? Wrong! You have to take x skill first and do not forget skaven have very low BS.

    - Verminkin have no advanced weapon training. That means that all swords, weeping blades, helbards - the only good weapons* (see next point) are unavailable to them without the skill. You can only take spears, clubs, daggers and flails. Escept last one none of these boosts your S.

    * Skaven weapons give you NOTHING without certain mastery. Weeping blades are literally worse than mace without weapon mastery. Loads of weapons give +x% to critical hits, or to parry but you'll get none of these without skill. Now compare it with a mercenry arsenal.

    - Skaven can't take Strenght skills. You only have wounds and S increase. Enjoy your unarmoured, weak skaven.

    - Assassin Adept is the only good fighter in the warband. Only he isn't. He struggles to achieve mercenary captain's starting stats (depends on a captain of course haha), and funny thing, his strenght and initiative (that for a first glance may appear higher than human's starting S) comes from S and I increases. This hurts especially with strenght because as you're already used to human warbands, you know that S is "natural", without any advances. BTW he starts with 120xp while mercenary captain with 80xp. This is ridiculous.

    Skaven are extremely un fun to play - they lack skill, staying power and punch. I hope next time Legendary Games will do a trial version so you can test a warband before buying, because now I regret the purchase.

    I'll attach some pictures later Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-36.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-42.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-36.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-42.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-50.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-30.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-39.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-48.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-48.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-39.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-22-07-30.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-56.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-50.png Screenshot_2017-07-13-19-40-42.png
  8. Chaosticket Major

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    Can you show starting skills off?

    Those stats, yeah theyre a bit lower than a Warrior often under 30s(should be game minimum), mostly leadership which is 30-35 lower. Ballistic Skill of course wont match a reikland Marksman.
  9. Marquand Major

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    Starting skills?
  10. Chaosticket Major

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    What skills like Weapons Training and Weapon SKill Increase they have.
  11. Marquand Major

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    Assassin starts with:
    1 Strenght Increase
    1 unarmed training
    2 Wepon skill increase
    2 Initiative increase
    2 ballistic skill increase
    2 leadership increase
    advanced weapon training
    basic weapon training
    thrown weapons training
    Sprint
    Perfect killer (like in tabletop, here it's -15 arm on all attacks.

    Verminkin starts with:
    basic weapon training
    unarmed training

    Available skills for Skaven:
    Combat - all + perfect killer, tail fighting, art of silent death
    Shooting -ballistic skill increase, thrown weapons, quickshot, blackpowder, hunter, knife fighter (so no pistolier, eagle eyes or trick shooter)
    Strenght - none except wounds and strenght increase + black rage
    Speed - all + infiltration
    Leadership - like mercenaries
  12. Ewan Lamont
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    Replying to Marquand, this threat and the other post (below)

    I've moved the content from your other thread here. I really get that you don't like what we have done with the skaven, which of course makes us sad. We are doing our best to make a fun cool balanced game that is more Mordheim than Mordheim. What you are writing at the moment is coming across as knocking the game for the sake knocking it, without any constructive feedback and in most cases just wrong .

    Obviously you feel they are underpowered and that is something that I need to get under the skin off but looking at the plain stats side by side they really aren't:

    Verminkin have identical stat ranges to human warriors but higher movement and Initiative but lower leadership. They have only weapons training but this is better than marksmen and they start with low xp and can quickly be tailored into shooters, fighters, scouts or any other role.

    The assassin adept is a monster and has the highest starting stat range of any leader in the game so far as well as the special perfect killer skill

    Skaven armour is the same stat wise as human armour with only the really high expensive variations (gromril etc) missing

    most weapons are identical to human weapons as regards stats, including the chance of seeing them plus we have some extra spear and halberd chances and really unique cool IP weapons like weeping blades and fighting claws. And yes you need to be an advanced combat master to use them effectively because they are literally awesome... for the sake of 1 skill point your are getting and extra attack and 30% crit chance...there is nothing better than that skill wise.

    Shooting: If you want your verminkin to shoot give them the shooting skill. It is one skill point you can pick it up after the first mission and they will be happily pelting the enemy to death in the 2nd. I can assure you 8 little furry so and so chucking poisoned throwing stars out of the dark and being completely invisible is a wall of invisible silent death. We did toy with giving them shooting to start with but went for the RPG like approach letting the player decide how to take they guys forward. If there is a strong lobby for this we can change it.

    And there are loads of unique tactical options that are open the skaven pretty much all the speed based skills are crying out to be selected because of their inhuman initiative.

    Anyway I hope that directly addresses some issues very happy to consider points on any others.



    Marquand Major


    Ok, I played quite a few games nd here are my observations.
    Stats:
    Aside from movement and quite high inititive skaven are f....ed on statistics. They are less skilled, weaker, less durable than humans. Verminkin who re your only warrior type available have mostly less strenght, less weapon skill and less wounds than mercenary marksmen. who are not close combat fighters.

    Assassin adept starts with very low stats. I had warriors with more impressive starting stats than the best adept I could find (side from WS, M and I). He's also 40 starting xp more than mercenary captain so forget about ever getting underdog bonus if you plan to run him solo for a few missions. Yes, he has greater rating than 4 (5?) starting human warband - if xp is counted like in tabletop which is one fighter increses rating by 5. If not...well. It's even worse.

    Verminkin has no starting shooting skill at all! Their combat skills are lame as well - compring them with human warriors, they lack advanced weapons training which means they cannot take swords and helbards. Only maces and spears.

    Armour:
    This is a joke. I know skaven are supposed to be lightly armoured and stealthy but in Mordheim Warbnd Skirmish armour is critical in survival. Strongest armour I found had 17 or 18 arm, strongest helmet had 7-8. Other items offer very little in a way of increasing ARM stat, but offer increases to leadership and initiative. A bit schizofrenic since skaven have extremely low LD and even getting + 20Ld will set them below avarage human warrior starting LD stat. Same goes with initiative - skaven initiative is generally (not always, mind you!) higher than human, so why would you further increse it?
    On a side note, taking any kind of armour takes away skaven only advantage which is movement.You cannot counter it because skaven have no access to the strenght skills.


    Weapons:
    Close sombat:
    Weapons are lame as well. Basic weapons escept flail offer no S bonus, no crit, no parry as well unless you get mastery. They are all mostly 0,0,0. Skaven verminkin cannot take any "bladed weapons" such as swords which offer some (mostly worse than human swords) buffs to parry - almost no weapon offers critical hit bonus higher than +5% without mastery! Compare it with falchion, cutlass, reik sword or whatever from mercenary rmoury - even without mastery you got increase to critical nd parry. Highly anticipated Weeping Blades are two handed weapon that gives you NO bonus of ANY KIND without weapons mastery.

    Shooting:
    Argh... Seriously?
    Only assassin can take them at the start. I found 3 kinds of thrown weapons: 2 stars and stanadard knife. Don not use them! They have extremely low chnce to hit, deal extremely low damage, at very low range (so low that human will detect you with no problem if you plan to shoot from hiding).
    Without set of skills like knife fighter and thrown weapon mastery they are useless.

    Besides - why the hell assassin should be shooting when he's the only semi reasonble fighter in the warband?
    Other weapon is a sling, just like in tabletop it costs 2gc. Never took it.
    Sure there are also warplock pistols but haven't seen them.

    BTW skaven cannot take trick shooter, eagle eyes or pistolier. So no matter what weapon you take, you're stuck with very low range, single shot on pistol and cover modifiers.

    I expected a sneaky, hard hitting warband that will rely on hiding, and striking first. I thought skaven will have some special dodge ability to recompense for lack of armour. Some skill that drastically lowers detection range, some wicked weapons or items.None of it.

    Skaven were ideal material to make strong elite warband, that requires tactics to use. With different playstyle than mercenaries but not worse. Well, they are worse and disappointing.

    I think I played more than 450+ battles with mercenary warbands and know how the game works so if anyone have an idea of "but waaait, play moooore and seee" - just don't. I don't need to spend hours just to find out that low stats sucks, that no strenght increase and low armour penetration will make my skaven struggle in close combat and that even bows will hurt you without armour protection. No thank, you.

    Also the visuals are not very good - but that's another topic. Also skaven in tutorial lack 80% textures.

    I'd really like to say I appriciate your effort. I really do. I waited for the skaven since they were annouced. But I feel really disappointed. Forgive my harsh words but I had really high hopes for the skaven.
  13. Chaosticket Major

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    If youre making Verminkin start with LESS SKILLS than that means youre actually punishing players for choosing to buy them.

    How many levels would you need to get the same starting statistics? Verminkin basically start with Sprint(that can stack on top of actual Sprint for 6 movement) and 1 Initiative skill increase. On the other hand they have 30-35 less leadership. You would need 5 Leadership increases with maximum rolls to be equal. So humans can reach starting skaven stats but skaven cant match humans without ludicrous luck?

    Humans start with 2 weapon proficiencies. Warriors have Weapons Training and Advanced Weapons Training. Marksmen start with Bow Training, Blackpowder Training, and Reiklander Marksmen have a Ballistic Increase.

    Net result verminkin are a lot worse by about 5-10 levels.
    ----------
    Skaven Assassin well that also a problem. The assassin would need basically every human captain stats, except leadership, to be slightly better. They started with 4(0) strength in the original Mordheim. Here that should be the absolutely minimum the assassin can have especially if they have 1 Strength Increase already, and should be 45 average.

    Unless the skaven unique skills are gamebreakers youre losing out by quite a bit.

    My key questions are, can they use Hochland Long Rifles and do they have mercenaries with Full Plate armor?
  14. Marquand Major

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    No, it doesn't adress anything I wrote. I gave you examples, described problems and asked some questions which you choose to ignore and called my post "knocking the game for sake of knocking it".
    1. Yes, stats, skills and equipment are everything in this game. You made it so.

    2. What you said about verminkin is definitely not true. They are worse - their WS and S are mostly lower than human warriors - and no, we won't be comparing them into marksmen. Marksmen are shooting specialists, verminkin are not.

    3. Assassin is not a monster. This is just embarassing to read it. He's generally weaker (S) than human captain and that is with S skill increase. Look at the pictures - they re taken from 5 "starts" of Skaven warband.Aside from starting higher I and M and occasional WS most of the times he's worse than human captain. Note that only one time I got 5 starting wounds and S above 35. There's even one with strenght 28 - with S increase!

    4. Armour - so... etc I guess means full plate for exmple? But ok, if it's "same stat wise" - I give you this: humans can take armour training and sprint. You can have up to 60arm pts with movement 5. Skaven CANNOT take armour trining. So one of assassin's advantages (M6) will drop to 3!!! if he chooses to take any weight: 3 item. Which brings us to conclusion that with much better armour and skill humans can be faster than skven. cool.

    5. Identical? The only equivalents I found so far re: club, mace, spear, helbard, straight sword (equals to falchion), cleaver (equals to battle axe). What about greatswords, great axes and great hammers. Gromril weapons?Cutlass? Are they also there - I haven't found them yet.
    How are skaven to deal with heavy armour? I ask again. About the weeping blades - ostland great axe requires 1 skill and also gives 25% crit bonus (you're wrong weeping blades do not have 30% crit). And 20+S if I remember well. And can be taken by any warrior from the start. Weeping blades can be taken only by assassin and give him nothing until he get's an advance. Skaven (except flail which is inferior to any great weapon) get no S increasing weapons. Great weapons are available from the start to any warrior and S/crit/parry/armour pen bonus they have is only increased with skill.

    6. Shooting - No, they won't be "happily pelting the enemy to death in the 2nd".
    1. Their BS is terrible.
    2. Their weapons are extremely short ranged and you get mayby one shot before you're detected and charged. Yes. Enemy can detect you even if you're skaven. Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-13-50.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-14-03.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-17-05.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-20-21.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-23-18.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-25-48.png Screenshot_2017-07-15-10-49-33.png


    Can you answear my questions from previous post please? Let me ask again:
    - How skaven are to deal with high armour later on? They are weaker, have no access to S skills and assassin (who's not as strong) has already one S increase included.

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with fear? You see, fear in Mordheim affects you for one round only, in Warband Skirmish it works every round.

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with strong shooting warbands? Because in later "campaign" marksmen detect you from half across the board and sneaking WILL NOT WORK. Which leads us to:

    - How skaven are supposed to deal with incoming damage? Their starting wounds are suspicioulsy low, you have to hunt for 5 wounds for several post battles (and it's often a trade off because W5 warriors have worse than human marksman stats, initiative included!). Also I haven't seen anything stronger than 15 (or 17) armour in the store. I understand this is the start but even with starting mercenry warbands you got a glimpse of cuirass, skull cuirass, heavy breastplate or even full plate at the start of the warband.
  15. Ewan Lamont
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    I think the comment on strength skills is valid and we are considering adding some more on the Thursday release but they are not disadvantaged in any other way . Stat wise we have followed the Warhammer base stats exactly: if it is decimalised we have converted it into a percentile so s3 is a range of 25-35 etc and leadership has been converted into a percentile based on chance of passing a 2d6 ld test. If you want a sneaky warband you are going to have to invest in the speed skills especially hide in shadows. Skaven will have to deal with fear by keeping close to the leader or shooting from a far, sneaky cowards is who they are.

    My big fear is people may consider them too powerful because of all the extra attack options they get and we get accused of favouring the first DLC warband rather than trying to keep a balance.
  16. Chaosticket Major

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    I dont like seeing DLC for all the problems is causes. When you put a price tag on things before a game is completed its "selling in pieces". Then if theyre not actually balanced out its a waste of cash spent. Probably the worst thing is if you sell DLC CLOTHES!

    Skaven leadership should be less than humans, true. However its "By how much?" If you change the 2d6 leadership system from Mordheim to Warband Skirmish to a 1-100 system then Skaven should still only be 20 points lower than humans, not 30. Humans have about 55-60 leadership, so skaven should be 35-40. Human captain has about 65-75, skaven Asssassin leader should have 10 less, so 55-65. Now how much is it actually ingame?

    Missing skills on anyone doesnt really work in Warband SKirmish as it forces warbands to follow a narrow playstyle when youve made hidden tiers of metagame that require certain key skills like Fear or Dodge. Having an entire team of specialists doesnt work unless its basically a whole team of tanks or sharpshooters. Skaven dont have their trademarks numbers so they are lacking in durability, power, and shooting.You need to be able to make things like STormvermin with armor and greatweapons, or gunners with Warplock firearms.

    Strength skills are necessary as that is where melee damage, armor, and even Fear are. Without those melee characters are doomed. Because characters are quite a bit tougher here than Mordheim trying to spam attacks really doesnt work. For one you need high weapon skill to unlock the ability to purchase more attacks. Even if you do Armor, Parry, and Hit Points offer strong protection against any attacks that arent strong enough.

    I think You went too far in "balancing" skaven and just made them mostly worse than humans. They needed more playtesting.
  17. Marquand Major

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    Unfortuntely I had to uninstal Mordheim because reiklanders are in the top 10 and I got little bored (understandable) and skaven became uplayable. Now, this is good you consider addition of strenght skills, skaven definitely need them. All of them.
    Why?
    Unstoppable charge and pit fighter is compulsory in later stages unless you want to be hit more often and hit less often.

    Fearsome is a must. I said at the beginning that skaven are unplayable. This is caused by two factors - first is high armour, which skaven have no way to deal with reliably and second is fear.
    Keeping close to the leader will not work for two reasons:

    1. My leader is 37 LD while my worst rat is 25. 37LD is not enough. Now in case you're about to suggest buffing him with LD incresing items (which would make sense but...) - I can't do that, his I is 40 which is quite low (at this point my turn sequence is interrupted sometimes by humans with higher I) and high I is his only advantage.
    2. Concentration of troops close to the leader takes one and only advantage of skaven, which is high movement. With high movement you can (should) spread your rats granting you ability to strike from different angles at differnt enemies instead of going frontal assault. Moreover if you choose to keep close to the leader (let's asume his LD is worth it) you cannot move and hide reliably (no room for everyone), and if such a gruop is discovered by enemy spotter before charges and shooting - you're a dead meat.
    I'm (was) 420+ in the rating and that means quite a few battles. Believe me there were some where none of my skaven was able to charge fearsome warriors. They just couldn't pass fear test. Several turns in a row. In return fear causing trooper(s) slaughtered my entire warband one by one with impunity. You just cannot win. Buying Bugman's i's not always possible, you cannot take 6 bottles every time, it costs and sometimes taking a draught and skipping a turn is not an option.

    Strongman -> Crushing blow is another ultra important skill. Skaven currently lack any tools to deal with heavy armour. I have 45S rat with a mastery flail and 3 attcks - he's dealing very, very little damage to 40+ armour which at this point is quite common. Parry lowers the damage even more. This skill is a must, unfortunately it's still not enough. I tried weeping blades - there are 3 sets in my warband. Even with 3/4 attacks, 44S minimum and 35% crit chance my skaven are often doing 3x0 in a row versus armoured opponent. Retaliation is lethaly painful.
    Armour Training - If skaven are to keep their movement advantage and survive thanks to armour they should be able to take this skill. Otherwise armoured skaven will be slower than humans who can take armour training.

    Also please give skaven pistolier, eagle eyes and trick shooter. They could take these skills originally and having weapons with extremely short ranges, they have very often no chance to use them.

    What needs to be done:
    - I think that armour as it is must go. It must be definitely toned down. One reason is that skaven (and certain future warbands if this game survives that long which I hope it will) are not the only warband with high S deficiency - what about the undead? Witch hunters? Possessed without weapons? Armour is too strong for skaven - when there were only mercenaries it worked well. But now?
    - Skaven need high S weapons. Simple as that. Critical chance is not enough, on the contrary. You can just change stats in already existing weapons - make hooked halberd equal to greatsword. Make flail egual to comet maul or at least double headed maul. These weapons are already here - just change stats...
    - Fear must be reworked. I have no idea how, but possession of one or two fearsome models (Sigmar protect us if they're also heavy armoured) is a death sentence to the skaven. I'm not exaggerating. In tabletop you could stone ghouls and zombies to death with dozen of slings which everyone could take. You could take fear yourself (3 heroes could). You could take bugman's ale before the battle and it affected every model. Most important, fear was working for 1 round only if you got charged and survived - and you often survived versus ghouls or zombies. not so if vampire or possessed took you unawares.

    And as Chaosticket mentioned - your assassin was LD7. This really helped.

    One last thing - tabletop terrain was 3d. You could climb any wall if movement allowed you - and skaven had best movement in game. Here you cannot. You cannot just climb any wall to escape (if you were about to be charged) /engage the enemy.
    Or just move that way.
    Or climb up where no one can charge you and send stone afters stone into enemy face.
    Or climb at the higher level just to perform diving charge next turn - and with I4/5 skaven suceeded more than anyone.
    etc
    In warband skirmish you move either on a flat surface or in restricted up/down areas that are accesible to anyone. I'm not saying "make climbing an option". I'm just saying that not all skaven strenght can be translated by numbers alone.

    Unfortuntely these tools are taken from you here. Don't fear making skaven stronger - on the contrary. Skaven need boost in almost every aspect. Believe me people will be happy with tht change.
  18. Chaosticket Major

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    Armor must be reworked in general, its just worse for Skaven. Just plain body armor from Brigandine to Gromril might be fair if Freelancers werent easily available for Cash and free of any gold cost. Its also the Warband Skirmish exclusive items, Helmets, consumables, the Tenacity skill, and Step Aside(against melee) also make it possible to have a 100% Defense rating.

    Ranged weapons cap in effectiveness at -15 Defense. Common Freelancers without shields have 45 base Defense and they can get more. SHield using Freelancers start at about 60 defense.

    Skaven are supposed to have every human weapon available, including mace-type weapons. So Club, Warhammer, Skull Splitter, Mace, and Skull Hammer should be there. But those doesnt pierce Armor completely, and Parry can still be stacked up to 45%. Unless your damage rolls are 4 or more you still do 0 damage to enemies that have up to 17 hit points. How are slings and throwing stars supposed to get past that?

    Overall Armor is far far stronger than in the original Mordheim where the HIGHEST you could get with ultra-rare Gromril Armor and a shield was 66%, and that was easily taken care of by Greatweapons(-33% before Might Blow or Strength Increases calculated).

    I keep asking does Strength in Warband Skirmish reduce Defense or not? I have yet to recieve a response.
    -----------------------
    Id like to see a skill and/or permanent equippable items that can balance things out, such as Armor-Piercing Ammunition for Bows and Firearms.

    Also bring in another type of Mordheim(and real life) weapon, the Sword Breaker. You could have it reduce all chances of parrying to 0.

    This would help out the Skaven, humans, and others in the future as its a fundamental problem.
  19. Marquand Major

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    But armour piercing amuniton is as you said for bows and firearms - it won't help skaven, on the contrary. And human shooting deals with armour - you have elf bows and blackpowders. You also have superior gunpowder.

    Sword braker was a mistake in originl M. Parry rules were horribly written (easily fixed though) and sword breaker became a not-fun-at-all trolling tool of that guys (yes it bacame popular at some point). "Oh, You hit me on 3+ with your double handed ithilmar greatsword? Here, I break it on 4+. Remove it from the rooster."

    Especially idea of being able to parry AND BREAK two handed hammer, axe, sword or in fact any weapon is stupid to the extreme. Or pistols.

    In real life it was impossible at least. Historically speaking.

    Armour/armour penetration just needs to be revised. But most importantly fear.
  20. Chaosticket Major

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    Um you missed it, Skaven should have all the human equipment, Bows and Firearms included. Skaven are Rat-MEN. They can pick up and use anything humans can.

    1 SUperior Gunpowder is as actually even more worthless here than the original Mordheim. Its a one use item that costs about 60gold and gives you a +1 potential damage. if it was permanent it wold be a lot more useful for Pistols, Handguns, and Rifles.

    2 I suggested an idea based on Sword breaker based on what it could do here, yeah it was busted in the original Mordheim, but there are no other counters to Parry. Parry is quite broken here.

    3 Armor is broken because you can stack is much higher than originally but anti-armor doesnt scale up so its easy to just put on a helmet or pick Tenacity and you still get excess Armor no matter what..

    4 Fear is broken as it works every turn and Skaven have even lower leadership so one-skill can wreck your entire team. Unless you have Fearsome yourself melee will be doomed to fail when it starts appearing.

    Now Skaven get it worse because they dont have #1 heavy armor, #2 strength skills like Fear, #3 firearms. At the tiers I am fighting enemies that has 2-3 of those things. "Glass Cannon" Marksmen have Elven Longbows and armor at 30%+ frequently, while melee characters have 50-75%+ armor and 3 attacks.

    So skaven are supposed to take them down, how?

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