Solving the problems of mobility

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Cyberaddict, Jun 16, 2020.

  1. Cyberaddict Major

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    IMHO, mobility is the main issue that will decide if a match will be won or lost on turn 0.
    • Mercenaries and Possessed can fly (Captain).
    • Skaven have high Movement and can take Infiltration skill.
    But Undead, Witch Hunters, Sisters of Sigmar and Dwarf Treasure Hunters have close to nothing to help them in that field (Undead and Dwarf can at least buy a Warlock). For this reason, PvP against average players piloting a mobile warband (if yours is not) are almost certain to be lost. That is, when the map is not TOTALLY biased in one of the player's favor.
    Some suggestions :
    1. Fix the maps. Some Treasures seem to be positioned to make one player win on purpose.
    2. Reduce the frequency of missions based on Treasure or Shards (in PvP), and instead force confrontation. Make some scenarios more frequent (take the objective, or defend the position), and/or add a PvP scenario where the objective is wiping out the opponent. Slow factions would be happy to have that one. They deserve it.
    3. Nerf the flying spells, from 12 to 8 or 10 squares ; and/or by reducing the casting chances so that the spell is maxed at 100% in best case (at level 4, with Sorcery, Staff and Robe). Because they are repeatable (every turn), they are much more powerful than Infiltration or Mining. This would also weaken a bit the solo Captain (who is a travesty in Mordheim, where the game is supposed to be played with a Warband and not a Wardude), because they'll get at best 90% casting chances if they don't equip a staff instead of a weapon.
    4. Buff the Mining skill. The Dwarves need at least a 12 squares bonus to get some chances. A free turn is worthless when Move is already that low. It only serves to isolate the unit from its warband, which is counterproductive.
    5. Make the Mining skill not dependant on the Pick. Infiltration has no equipment prerequisite, and is way more powerful. Enough said!
    6. New skill - PASSAGE OF THE FAITHFUL : The Holy Church has developped a network of informants and secret passages. The hero can use this knowledge to get a head start in Mordheim (effect identical to Infiltration ; prerequisite would be high Leadership, and only available to Witch Hunters and Sisters of Sigmar). A similar skill, based on the unholy, could be made available to Undead... but they already have Vampires that move at 7... maybe they don't need it.
    As it is, most PvP scenarios heavily favor the fastest warband. This destroys creativity and diversity. I'm pretty sure something needs to be done, for sake of game balance.
  2. Shangular Brigadier

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    Sorry but I disagree with the many of the points on this suggestion except for #1. Yes some warbands have more mobility than others but that is okay. The goal is to have each warband have a different playstyle. Each warband can be competitive against each other today, are they perfect, no, but they can be competitive.

    Don't forget witchhunters have access to elves you can easily get 93% Flight spell. Undead has the vampire that already moves fast plus a warlock so they're good. Sisters have high initiative and can get -50 protection against shooting so they do have a chance (also remember many people thought they were the best warband lol)

    The Treasure hunt scenario is great because it forces you to think of a different strategy than the capture circle scenarios. It takes those players who like to turtle out of their comfort zone which imo is a good thing. My thoughts on the 6 items mentioned:

    1) I think this fixes the crux of the situation. I made a suggestion in a separate post to move the chest location more towards the center as sometimes, it is significantly closer to one starting area. The real issue is not a warband's lack of mobility, but the chest placement location.

    2) Having more of a frequency of mix of scenarios is good. However, I have to really disagree on adding a Rout Enemy scenario as you'll have nab players run a hide from corner to corner and the game will last forever. The current scenarios avoid this as you either have to grab a treasure or win a location at the center of the battlefield.

    3) Disagree, you're changing the way certain warbands play. There is no issue with the flying captain/warlocks or solos today. It adds another playstyle and more variety of playstyles are good. There are many ways to combat this as well as to combat solos. Plus solo warbands are worthless at high levels (how well do you think solo warband would do against my Middenheimers that you fought before?) so I don't think its really an issue.

    4. I semi-agree with this. I think the Dwarf Pick should either be one-handed or a backpack item. Also it would be good just to have one give the entire warband infiltration. I think 12 squares to too many.

    5. I think it should as dwarves wouldn't naturally have any characteristics that would lead to infiltration. What's I'd like to see are other improvements to dwarves such as an Ambush skill or a higher movement charge skill for Slayers or an Engineer warrior that because a really good sniper.

    6. Disagree, Sisters are seen by many as the "best" warband so they don't need this. See my comments above, they already move fast and have speed skills and immunities to getting shot. I think they're fine.

    Disagree that PVP relies on the fastest warband. There are turtling playstyles that can be successful. The best tactic (which involes many variables and luck on RNG is what wins, which isn't necessarily the fastest.
  3. Cyberaddict Major

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    You have many good and valid points. I like having brought this issue here, as it broadens my own vision of the game. Thanks for taking the time to reply! :)

    Yes, Elven Witch Hunters can get as high as 105% in Flight of Zimmerman, with 4 Holy Books. But this takes a lot of inventory space, which automatically makes these Elves less good than Warlocks (no lantern, no rope, no lucky charm, no cloak, no herbs, etc.). Also, such Elves will take a VERY long time to train to that level (Tome of Magic + 4 skills + 4 Holy Books), while a Warlock is almost fully ready to fly at 100% (3 skills). This, plus the fact that Elves are quite rare in the Tavern, compared to Warlocks. All the while, Witch Hunters are really underwhelming in Treasure/Shards scenarios.

    Sisters with high Initiative and missile protection still can't get to a Treasure or Shards fast enough when facing Mercs or Possessed (or Elven Witch Hunters, or Old Mages teaming up with Dwarves).

    I also like how the Treasure Hunt scenario forces players to do something. But it feels 70% of all PvP encounters are Treasure Hunts. Dwarves probably have a win rate of 0-10% in these scenarios.

    But you are right : Wipe the Enemy scenarios are not good in PvP. My bad.

    Still, we should have more diversity in scenarios...

    I know many people love that solo Captain strategy. It's fun, I admit. But it seems too powerful to have 100% flight. In many cases, the only thing that could give the opponent a very slim chance of not totally losing, is a miscast spell. Even then, you can still escape next turn. IMHO, the only unit that should be close to 100% is the dedicated mage (robe, staff, level 4). Even then, the test should be capped at 90%, as is the case of all other checks in Mordheim.

    The thing about the Pick is that it requires a skill to trigger the turn 0 move. I think it should be one or the other : either just a skill, or an item that gives the power. But needing the two is a bit too much. Dwarves are already taxed very much as it is.

    Anyway, we all agree on the one essential point : fix the maps. But putting the Treasure in the center will not solve the problem. The fastest team will still win 100% of the time. Treasure Hunts should be made as an equilateral triangle. Both teams are equally distant from the Treasure and from each other. That way, two fast teams will meet at the Treasure and fight there. But if one team knows it's not fast enough, it can still run to the exit and get there just (barely) on time to intercept the Treasure carrier as he runs back home. This, even if their Movement rate is half that of the carrier. This change wouldn't give the victory to the slow team, but it will mean that ALL team will have a fighting chance, albeit slim, at winning each and every scenarios.

    As for the Shards, one piece should ALWAYS be within running distance of the spawn spot, so that the slowest of the slowest (Dwarves) at least force the opponent to rush and kill the unit that has the shard to get it. Hey, we've seen yesterday that even while trying hard, @Skrit9's dwarves couldn't even get to the closest shard before @Algirdas25's Magister grabbed it while flying away. This : totally unfair. I'm not the one suffering the injustice, but it really feels the game is rigged against the slow factions.
    Algirdas25 likes this.
  4. CzaRus Major

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    Higher mobilty means sacrifice of defence, for example. Solo caps may be seen as unfair, because they overpower each of your individual units. Combine them, do not split up and frequently skip turns. You did beat my Marienburg band which only active member that fight was the cap, the snipers did very little. And you managed to overpower him.
    The only thing I would change is start locations and loot,treasure and shard placement on most maps.
  5. Shangular Brigadier

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    For Merc Captains or Magisters, it takes a long time to get them to that level of power that you're referring to. To get 100% Flight, you first need to get a Tome, then spend 3-4 skill points on Flight (depending if you get a second tome). That's just to get Flight. To make this effective, you also have to be a good fighter too which takes additional skill points. So focusing skill points of Flight puts you behind on the other combat skills. Then if you want 100% flight/wings, you can't wear armor or good helmets so you sacrifice defense for mobility. A robed captain/magister is vulnerable to missile fire, fireballs, etc (I find it hilarious when my elves Ambush a flying captain and kills him lol). Thus given the level of effort and sacrifice of defense, I don't see an issue with a merc captain/magister behind overpowered because of a 100% Flight casting. Also, to get a good magister you need to get the good mutations with is a task onto its own.
  6. Cyberaddict Major

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    There’s still something that feels wrong and pretty OP about Mage-Captain (solo or duo). There’s that Warband, around 170, with Mage-Cap (Félix) and Slayer (Gothrek) that are pretty much invincible... at least for my Sisters (same rating). My win rate is 85% with that team, and I even defeat 320. But these two are too much to me. The dwarf, I only hit at 10% with my Matriarch!!! Felix is a bit easier to get, but still around 25%. Conclusion : there’s some crazy concentration of skills in that Warband, and rating is not calculated correctly (we know that system is not perfect). I don’t know if flying is too powerful, or it’s just that spells and spell levels have so little impact on rating. Just like my Skaven, there’s a lot of potential abuse with the rating system, and solo Mage-Cap is the epitome of that abuse.
  7. Cyberaddict Major

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    @Shangular : just discovered that it’s your own Warband (Félix and Gotrek) that’s the nemesis of my Sisters. :p

    Well, congrats, that’s the most Awesome looking Warband I’ve seen in a while! :) But I just hate it, and you playing it only emphasizes how seriously the rating system can be abused. My Skaven are notoriously abusing that system, but it’s far worse with Warbands that only sport one or two Heroes. Sisters can’t abuse the rating system as much, because they’re exclusively melee (it’s range and magic that are abusing). I’m telling, with the % odds I could see on my side, it was a matchup I was doomed to lose.

    This has nothing to do with mobility, but the potential abuse for rating system, however.

    Maybe, if rating is fixed, then low levels Witch Hunters, Sisters and Dwarves wouldn’t encounter Warbands like this as often. And when they’ll eventually do, they’ll be of higher level, skilled and geared to fight an opponent like that.

    Maybe the mobility problem is one of rating?
  8. CzaRus Major

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    You also do not cover much ground with solo/duo. If the mission is like breakthrough, numerical advantage may do a serious problem to solos. It is all relative, and as I and Shang said earlier, you need much more effort to go good solo (deafult caps just suck) and even more on duo. If you take shortest path to merc mage-cap, you need to upgrade Ld (+1 lvl at least), buy tome of magic (2x-4x ~400gold), get 3 levels of Flight (+3 lvl), get sorcery skill (+1 lvl), get warrior wizerd to get some nice hat (+1 lvl), buy robes (~ 200gold), now the rest. You spend about 600 - 1400 gold and 6 - 7 levels just to be good at flying without a staff, while sacrificing defence and general survivability on frontline combat. That's not little. Now gid gud at combat, get speed skills...... Yeah, hard and rocky road. Not THAT OP, but usable. Best shock-troop late game (together with magister).

    You could also go MEGA ARMORED CAP, which neans you get +7D helm, +13D shield and get a staff. 40 D in melee while having to retain the staff for 100% cast of flight, not really legit but sometimes might work.
  9. Erkebrand Major

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    I don't think every band should have something like infiltration, or making them move more, but for dwarfs there is a need due to their low movement. The pickeaxe option should be buffed, I'm agree with shangular on that way.
    They should have some kind of super eagle eyes for finding stuff in the ground, due to contacts and trades. This may make them at least he able to walk straight to their objective.
    About magic, I'll like the idea of a 90% Max cast chance, as for any other roll in the game. And I'll add something more, 10% chance of suffering 0-2 wounds if the spell casting is unsuccessful. This just for magic not for the prayers
    Cyberaddict likes this.
  10. Shangular Brigadier

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    Thinking about the chest placement more. I’m wondering if the current setup of skewing it to one side makes sense because it does give slow warbands a chance to win without hired swords. Here’s proof from an older pic when my solo dwarf got the chest and outran the Skaven with his stubby legs lol A955EA2E-D62B-469B-B648-C9659D5F2EDC.jpeg
    CzaRus likes this.
  11. Shangular Brigadier

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    For the record, the trollslayer Wishes his name was Gotrek :p

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