Suggestion: Balance Pass

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Trapsinger, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Trapsinger Major

    Message Count:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I really like double misfire's idea about animal training for freelances, and it got me thinking...

    What if we gave them a whole set of academic skills like animal training, the witch hunters hatred of magic users, some skills from the sisters which aren't quite out yet like 50% chance to resist magic, and hatred of undead and possessed/demons, and then maybe one special skill called battlefield experience or inspiring presence that let other warband members use his leadership within range six. Like battle tongue but not for leaders.

    I also think it would be neat if instead of a wardog he got a special pet called a squire that was a human with maybe the reduced stats of a zealot and equipped with no armor but a dagger and a short bow. Obviously as a pet he wouldn't gain experience. Might also be fun with a spear instead of a dagger
    Double Misfire likes this.
  2. Double Misfire Private

    Message Count:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    3


    Surely coconuts as an armament for the squire in absence of in game horses? ;)

    [IMG]


    I like the idea of slapping some extra academic skills on the Freelancer, though the flavour text in the Mordheim rulebook describes him as more of a disillusioned mercenary or 'robber knight' than templar type, so any Witch Hunter flavoured anti magic skills should probably be left out.
    Algirdas25 likes this.
  3. Trapsinger Major

    Message Count:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    31
    I'd also like to respond to double misfire's armor ideas.

    I think they are good ideas working from where we are now in warband skirmish, but from a tabletop translation perspective... I think that in a rough sense armor in this game has a roughly similar base percentage chance to save you from a hit as it did in tabletop, but the real problem is that tabletop had more ways to punch through it. In tabletop high strength reduced armor, and crits completely ignored it, neither of which happens in this game and both of which worked with any weapons.

    Also armor training effecting weight three lines up with armor training in tabletop, because in that what it did was remove the movement penalty of having a shield and heavy armor. Weight actually has a stronger effect on this game already because in tabletop any other combination of gromril, ithilmar, light armor, or shields had no effect on movement, and in this it does.

    So in the spirit of using tabletop as a model, I'd much rather see strength reduce armor than armor pick up more penalties.
  4. Trapsinger Major

    Message Count:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Hehe, yes! The squire should at least have the backpack, modelled on the Dreg pack maybe, but with banner stuck in the top instead of body parts. And the banner should totally match the warband's faction!

    I was thinking of Hatred, less like, "Based on my strong religious background and affiliations, I believe strongly that all witches must be burned at the stake!" and more like, "Oh yeah! I fought me some of them! Those monsters killed my squire, Nedry! I'll tell you just how to kill some <insert creature type here>!" And in that sense it could really be targeted at any group, even other human warbands. Sort of like a Dwarf Grudge.
  5. TheRoyalOwl Private

    Message Count:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    1
    The armor giving reduced initiative could be nice, but i think armor training should stay the same.


    I would also recommend giving freelancers unique armor that is either hard to find or impossible to find at the store. 1 - It could help freelancers feel more unique and 2 - people might buy them for their armor.
  6. Sean Private

    Message Count:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I'd be totally down with reducing the highest armour values, like those currently at 25 becoming 22, 30->26, 35->30, 40->33.
    I don't place a great deal of importance on initiative (maybe I should?) so don't really care if the initiative penalty changes, would prefer the weight values to increase but I think ranged attacks may be too powerful then. Is it possible for armour to be more effective versus ranged attacks that melee? Or maybe have gromril and Ithilmar give 5 or 10 to dodge like the Elven Cloak does?

    Love the idea of Freelancer having access to animal training, not sure about the hated of magic/undead. If a squire pet was created, please have him stick close to the Freelancer like a rat with the Packmaster, not charging of with no stealth like the other pets - I generally just find them to be a constant drain on gold as they die frequently!
  7. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Thank you for referring me to this thread, Trap! I read it before you sent me here, but now I know the person posting better. Love your idea about armor. I stack armor, because I hate troop death. We always removed troop death as a house rule in our table top group. We lost a player permanently over losing his best troop to death. He never came back to play again. So while the idea of nerfing armor terrifies me, because it makes me feel like I will have to spend more money on fate for dead troops, I agree something needs to be done. My Vamp wearing Gromril and a Visored helm has a 90 Defense. As long as I hit hammer carrying troops first and take them out quickly, he can solo entire Warbands at a 3200 Warband rating. As fun as that is for me, if I see a Vamp in full Gromril carrying a hammer, I force close and quit the game. No way I'm letting one troop wipe my entire Warband. And he would do it.

    Agree with the need to keep Dregs worse at fighting, but maybe give them more wounds so they can fill a "tank role" better and allow us to make a spell casting Vamp. I am working on converting me Undead to that now, but my 2 Dregs and 1 Ghoul keep dying off, so I can't get a valid "tank" character to replace my Vamps need to be in that role. Based on your description above, it would make sense that said Dregs have a higher constitution and would therefore he a little more tough. They may not be as good at fighting as that professional soldier, but they should be "tougher."

    Vamp lovers may hate me for this, but I think they should not be able to wear armor at all. Restrict them to spell casting robes. Leave everything else. Turn him into a glass cannon. That is what I am attempting to do with mine, but again, struggling to fill that "tank" role properly with troops below lvl 10 in a 3200 rating Warband. It will force us to use him with strategy, instead of just shoving him down our enemy's throats as is the tendency now.

    So here's the deal. No one likes losing troops to death. Like I said, we banned that rule in our group playing table top. And the first time one of my troops died (I made it a good 3 months without a dead troop, so he was high level) I almost deleted the game and did not come back. It was an awful rule that ruined table top and is an even more terrible rule here. The new "ghost" update is better, but is still death and you still have to have fate to revive. I guarantee the idea of troop death is one reason why people quit playing and then tell others never to download it. I try to sell this game to friends constantly. No matter how I spin "troop death" it always causes a definitive "no" in anyone I talk to. That is your deal breaker for most possible new players. And because most of your reviews, even the good ones, mention it, most will read a few reviews, see "troop death" and then move on and never even give it a chance. You can take that to Games Workshop. That was their idea. You guys need to see the error in their ways and keep working to make this the game they could not. It has already reached more people than table top ever dreamed of doing. No way 50, 000 people bought TT mordheim stuff. That game had a "cult following" at best.
  8. Igenham Corporal

    Message Count:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    11

    In the tabletop game, death, while a pain, was part of what made the game fun. Most characters could be replaced within 1 or 2 games (especially henchmen, but heroes too)... Most tournaments usually only lasted 6-10 plays, so there was never the time to build up so much.

    Also, the biggest difference is the ability to pay to keep a character from dying... Which you could not do in the tabletop. I wonder how our feelings about the game would shift if you could not do this (to be honest, it amost is a "pay to win" mechanic, as it allows you to keep high-lvl characters that would otherwise die...)

    Just throwing it out, would timers (that you could pay to avoid) feel more balanced? Maybe with a limited number of videos? (feel free to disagree with me, as it probably constitutes a paywall).
    Double Misfire likes this.
  9. Trapsinger Major

    Message Count:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Hey...I was in that cult...

    I certainly understand why a permadeath feature would turn some people away, but simply as a counter point to your argument, it's actually the reason I'm here. I really liked the injury system in tabletop, it felt like it gave my characters flavor and backstory. And something I don't like in other games is when you reach a point where you have all the best stuff, and there is nothing else to do. If you can "finish" a game, I generally don't play it for very long, and one of the reasons I keep coming back to this is because in this game you can lose what you've gained and have to get it back, you can't simply "cap out."

    In fact, I've actually been playing this game without fate, specifically so that the deaths will "stick" when i get them. I'm a little disappointed in this update for that reason, it takes a lot of the sting out of losing. My one solace is that now when I'm saving up fate to revive someone, which takes a while, I have to play with my injuries until I get there. Ever since ads came out I've been missing my injuries.

    That's not to say you are wrong, many people would prefer a no death game, probably especially in the mobile market which is more casual in general. But there is a market for "hardcore" players too, which is how I always play games like Diablo and Path of Exile. And I've always felt like the dark gothic fantasy of mordheim fit that style of play very well. I'm not sure it would still be Mordheim if they took the death out of it. (In fact Mordheim actually translates as Deathhome if I'm understanding it correctly.)

    But hopefully the new ghost system is a happy middle ground, that will help them retain more casual players, without losing the hardcore ones.
  10. Igenham Corporal

    Message Count:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    11
    I think that most of us testers were.

    To be honest, I think the devs are too, given how hard they have worked to keep the game faithful to the original tabletop.
  11. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Like I said, in no way do I agree that troop death was ever a good idea in the first place. It was the reason we struggled to get more people playing in our store when we played TT and is the SPECIFIC reason I can't get anyone I know to give it a shot. Word of mouth advertising should benefit a game like this. Currently, I have to "leave out" the idea of troop death to get people to play. And I have, just to have them call me angry for wasting there time with a game. This isn't my opinion I am sharing there as much as "the reason I can"t get anyone else to play it." It s a deal breaker for most players. Deal breakers HAVE to be addressed, or people just continue to say "no" and we don't get many new players. I'd love to see this game hit 100k downloads.
  12. Igenham Corporal

    Message Count:
    47
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Out of curiosity, what was the "cost" that you replaced death with when you played the tabletop?
  13. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Trap, I hate Hardcore Diablo. Lost a friend over that argument. His choice, not mine. I refused to waste my time on that. He "couldn't be friends with someone who thought the way I did." WTH? I don't have time to "regain what I have lost." And neither do most other players. I am a completionist. The opposite of you. I plan my Warbands for endgame, and build them accordingly. Same thing I do in MMOs.

    Since you mentioned Diablo, that gave me an idea on this. One that would be very difficult for devs thugh, i think. Maybe 2 separate games modes, like Diablo. Cater to the "hardcore" and not the "casual" you lose WAY to many players. Again, I have inadvertantly turned away well over 50 people just by mentioning troop death. No way I am the only one encountering that.

    So far as giving troops flavor and character, I do that with my build, name and play style. I am a D&D player, so I role play those troops in my head. Ending up with a marksmen that can't hit anything cause he lost an eye makes him useless, not more flavorful. So he gets healed or dismissed.

    So here's another thought. Something that really hurts, and I think is stupid, is losing the gear said troop had when he died. Maybe for the "Honorable" Warbands, that makes sense. But Undead and Skaven especially? Nope, they'd scavenge that gear before anything else. And make it easier to get new troop "caught up" to the rest if you lose a troop late game. My Undead Warband is a great example. I have 3 troops in that band that basically go hide in a corner the whole match and then get 1 xp for "surviving" the match. Sure, I get a whole lot of exp if I kill something, but WTH is a dreg with a dagger going to do against a lvl 30 troop wearing armor? So I try, cause again, I don't have time to play 100 games before those troops are even remotely useful to me and rush them in to try and get a kill on a stunned opponent. Ofc, since I have terrible luck, they usually miss, then get charged and dead cause they didn't go hide in a corner. That's not fun. It's "throw my tablet in anger" frustrating. Which iI've never done, but boy has this game made me want to...
  14. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11

    We didn't. Simply removed death. Heck, most of us forgave injuries if an opponent rolled one after the battle. And would let other players have free exp to lvl troops to maintain balance in the group if someone had a troop who could never get a kill and would fall behind in exp. All of that "friendly stuff" we did to make the game fun for our group would not be valid here, unfortunately.
  15. Shangular Major

    Message Count:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    31
    When we played TT we were also forgiving of deaths for newbies who wanted to join the campaign to get them hooked on Mordheim. The veteran players took deaths as part of the fun with a campaign. But translating that to the mobile version would impact revenue. I'm one who believed the current revenue system was fine and hopefully with the recent changes to earn fate, Legendary will still get enough revenue to continue to put effort in adding on to this game.
  16. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    As Trap pointed out, however, the mobile market appeals to casual players, not hardcore. Unless they want to lose revenue catering to the few, they really need to figure out how to "hook" ppl like you just said. When I say that is THE deal breaker with EVERYONE I try to refer to this game, I mean it's the only one. At least 30 ppl, just me. I am not a statistics guy, but trap layed some awesome figures on me in another post. If 1/5 of the downloads are having the same issue, which is reasonable, that is 30,000 lost customers due to just troop death. Not to mention ppl who read about it in reviews, like my wife did, and refuse to give it a try.

    I deal with it. Not happy about it, but makes me feel better knowing I am supporting a small group. I made the mistake of assuming they were backed by Games Workshop and Dan and Trap corrected me. Micro transactions are killing me. But I recognize the importance of them in a mobile game. Most won't spend more than a few dollars. So offering a wider variety of fate purchase options may help as well. People eat .99 buys in these games. 3 fate for .99? Considering they are about .30 each, that wouldn't be a bad idea. And that is all we need to heal death. Lightening up the blow from death by not causing us to lose the gear would help as well.

    See, I don't play "hardcore" anything. And being forced to play that way here has just about ruined the experience for me. Playing a game for months, just to lose it all is a waste of my time. Unfortunately for hardcore players, most people are like me. So games like this that try to sell the "hardcore" aspect as "part of the fun" fail to appeal to a large enough audience to ever really be any more successful than a cult game. As I said earlier, that's all TT Mordheim ever really got. In my area at least.
  17. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11

    I derailed again. Sorry Trap, I suck at forums. Too many thoughts and I end up derailing. That said, I'd like to get back on track. Sean has a great point.

    I've stated I do not like troop death. So I play with a lot of ranged troops when I can. And yes, Sean has a point. We nerf armor, range attacks will become unbalanced. They already had to nerf Ambush. I am more afraid of a troop with a Hochland than I am a troop with a hammer. Unless it's a Vamp. Because I have to get to him before I can kill him. I lose more wounds to ranged attacks than I do melee as it is with high armor. Mostly because I have more control over who gets to hit me in melee. So I-m with Sean, we reduce armor values, they'll need to make up for ranged defense. In D&D a tower shield gives us 2 AC, but an extra 5 AC vs ranged. So Gromril, 33 vs melee, still 40 vs ranged? Adding Dodge may work too, Sean has something there. But doesn't make RP sense to give a Dodge increase to heavy armor unless you call it something else. Main issue with nerfing armor is my reason for derailing. So I won't derail, but will point out that it will increase troop death. Making it LOOK like devs are just trying to back ppl into buying fate to resurrect and increase the stigma this game already carries.

    Now, the Squire idea is freaking amazing! And I am entirely on board with giving him coconuts. Love Monty Python. Issue here is the AI is just dumb. I don't buy Rats or Rat Ogre's for my Skaven, because they ruin my ambushes and rarely do much other than just go die. So an AI controlled Squire will likely just die every battle, even if he follows his Knight like the rats do a packmaster. Soon as your Knight charges into battle, your Squire will follow. And AI is programmed to Target weak members first. At least it seems that way to me, I do not know the code... Freelancers are under powered. A human controlled Squire, with a bow and some very light armor would make the Freelancer a more tempting purchase, without even changing the Freelancer. He'd be a 2 for 1. Give the Squire min dreg stats, but a slightly better range skill, 3 wounds but light armor, and a large parry bonus if he is fighting next to his Knight, as the Knight would protect his Squire to a point. But then, they would need to change the name from Freelancer to Knight as well...

    Fanatics are going to need something, or they will only ever be suicide chargers. Leeeeeeeerrroooooyyyy Jeeeeeeennnnkkkiiiiinnnnsss!!!!! Get a few good attacks in, get charged, get dead. BUT, and I have not tried this yet, he can get up to a 52% to parry, which is my plan. Just not sure how well that will work yet. Ithilmar LS = 30, Pit Hook = 12, Web of Steel = 10. Did I miss anything? Brings me to another thought. When I picture a fanatic, I think about those scenes in movies where religious zealots are flailing their own backs in repent. This activity would make them tougher. High pain tolerance and all that. So how about more wounds, or added defense when you choose the fanatic skill, instead of strength? Adding more resiliency, like with the Ghouls and Vamp would help as well. Best for last, I think. How about the ability to spend a 4th point in both strength and wounds after choosing fanatic. 3 extra wounds, and a total of +10 to strength once leveled? Make them better late game that way too. Sorry for the book. Told ya I have a lot of thoughts. Spose I better join Discord.
  18. Trapsinger Major

    Message Count:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Personally my plan with the fanatic is to cap out at 40 parry, by swapping out your ithilmar sword for gromril so i still have some armor penetration, and swapping out the pit hook for a round shield to pick up some defense (because you can't parry a ranged attack), you lose 10 parry on the sword and 7 on the off hand, but you pick up 15 armor penetration, 8 defense, and a little bit of crit. Not sure how that stacks up in a power gaming sense, but it suits my style better.

    The ai on pets is admittedly not great, especially rats and the rat ogre, but i still like the dogs they are pretty predictable so you can usually work around them, as are zombies. The question with the squire is, how would that pet ai work if the pet was a shooter? I can sort of see him moving close to the freelancer if he doesn't have a shot, and shooting the nearest target if he does as a simple AI, and that would probably be at least a little helpful and interesting, wouldn't it? Obviously it would be better if we could control it, but 8 guys to control per turn is already enough i think, and he would be the only "pet" you could control in the game which makes him not really a pet anymore, i think?

    That said I really think the halfling scout should be two halflings also, since their power in tabletop was increasing the max size of your warband, so maybe the game needs controllable pets anyway? Not to mention how are they going to handle goblins only counting as half a guy for the Orcs and Goblins warband if they ever get that far?
  19. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Hrm, I like the Fanatic idea. I was hoping the extra strength would make up for lost armor pen. And the added init leads to my hope that I can get his init high to go first in battle. I use a tactic with my Vamp (only Skaven have higher init than him) where I wait my first turn, then charge at end of the round. Essentially giving me 2 moves because he then goes first in next round. Charge in , kill a troop, go back to hiding, set up the Ambush again. I use that with my entire Skaven Warband as well. So I was thinking I'd try to set my fanatic up like that. Guerrilla tactics, so to speak. Hit and run.

    If they use the idea of increasing strength and wounds by an Xtra point the added strength may make up for lack of armor pen, but then we get back to how OP armor is. High strength does not make up for armor pen currently.

    Oooh, that gave me a thought. Maybe instead of nerfing armor, they can make higher strength more effective against armor. Passively. They wouldn't even have to add that to skill descriptions, just out it into code. Makes sense too. A dreg with 25 strength would have a heck of a time swinging that sword hard enough to do anything to someone in armor. A Vamp with 80 strength would be more likely to cut through it like butter no matter what weapon they have. And it already works like this a bit, but the spectrum could be stretched farther. Counter point to my own thought, though, is this would make Armor much less useful late game, when everyone has increased strength.
  20. Sylens Corporal

    Message Count:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    11
    And I agree with your points on the Squire. Squire is a great idea, but that's going to need some Dev thought. Maybe give the knight a few basic commands skills? Move, shoot, wait, charge?

Share This Page