Suggestion: Balancing the warband ratings

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by TheRoyalOwl, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. TheRoyalOwl Private

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    ( Note ) So when i say warband ratings i mean more of just spell/magic ratings.

    So i just played a game against a 115 group of middenheim Mercenaries, and it was the most disgusting thing that has happened to me in mordheim.

    My group of Reiklands where about 97ish and thought it was just extra xp all around. So i joined the fray and he only had one warrior. It was a mage with duel pistols. But the problem is that he is clearly level 20 or so as he had excellent initiative, had All of spells, and used blackpowder weapons.

    With his one guy he could do 3 attacks ( Summoned the fire sword ), 2 missile shots, and an added fireball. That paired with the fact he waited to get an extra turn, he literally killed 3 of my 5 warriors before I could move one. He also had high WS as it was a 20ish chance to hit him with my sword. After losing that one i tried to beat him again, instead i spread out my warriors which did nothing. Ended up losing my captain and having several injuries.
  2. Sean Private

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    Yeah, the map ratings calculations don't work with solo warbands, probably not with couples either.
    Maybe that's one suggestion we could agree on for Trapsingers list; I quite enjoyed playing with a solo myself, but if the ratings calculations cannot be easily improved then it should be easy to simply exclude potential AI opponents when the difference in the number of warband members exceeds three. So if you're playing a solo, you'll still encounter other solos. If you have a group of 8, the enemy has a minimum of 5 members..
  3. Trapsinger Major

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    Hey, guys!

    Personally, I like occasionally seeing warbands of very different sizes as I play, but I haven't been having as much trouble dealing with the solos as you guys have. I suspect that more than limiting the size of the warbands when matching, that the rating system in general needs a review. Before I put it on the list do you guys have some specific ideas of which parts of the rating system should be adjusted, and which way they should go? Based on my personal experience I would say the following:

    Underrated Things:

    Defense
    Weapon Skill
    Spells (not all spells, but specific ones should be rated much higher, like the Sword)

    Overrated Things:

    Attacks
    Combat Master
    Unstoppable Charge
    Gromril Great Swords
    Hochland Longrifle

    Can you guys think of anything else? Or do you disagree with me about any of those things?
  4. Shangular Major

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    I was also one who had a lot of fun starting with a solo warband. Back then, the only challenging opponents were other solo warbands. The single warrior warband has always been a dominant one in the early on because a single high level warrior will typically defeat multiple lower level warriors and the rating system, both the old and current one don't fully address this.

    But now talking about the current rating system, some of the rating of skills as noted above will contribute to this imbalance. If you take Combat Master or Unstoppable Charge early on, your rating will sky-rocket sizably. I believe both bump if up by 350 each.

    Concerning the question of which is over and/or underrated, I agree that Combat Master and Unstoppable at 350 each are high but I can see how powerful they can be, especially if you have max WS and have both skills. Not sure how hard it is to program, but perhaps the rating impact should be dependent on synergistic skills. For example, if you have a WS of 28 and take Combat Master, perhaps the impact is only 50, if your WS is 40, then the impact is 100, if it's 65 then 200. Then if you also have a skill like Unstoppable Charge and then take Combat Master, perhaps the impact would be 400.

    Also the rating impact for the Comet Maul on a max vampire is interesting. When I equip it, my Undead warband has a 9,000 rating. But when I switch it out to a Skull Hammer, it drops to 6,000. So 3,000 for a comet maul? To be honest, a Skull Hammer is almost as effective.

    It would be good to see the current rating impact on skills and weapons in a table if possible. Not sure if Legendary is willing to share that? But if so, we could have a better discussion.
  5. Trapsinger Major

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    I think they already scale some based on synergies...because I know a comet maul doesn't give me 3000 rating. but yeah it's worth too much more than the skull hammer, especially since strength doesn't give armor penetration. And the gromril great sword is worth too much more than the gromril sword, probably for the same reasons.

    There are some other items that are backwards too. Like the Reik Sword is worth more than the Gromril Sword, and the Imperial Skull Shield is worth more than the Votive (probably because of the Initiative difference, but the votive has more defense and they should probably be the same)

    Also on the vampire: since a shield can you get over 100 defense and make him invulnerable, then the skull hammer and shield should probably be worth more than the comet maul, rather than the other way around.
  6. Shangular Major

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    You're right, synergistic calculations are probably already applied to weapons but they do not seem to apply to skills or maybe just the 2 highlighted above. The comet maul has a much less and reasonable impact on my Middenheimer warband.

    But with 100 defense, if you're facing a comet maul or skull hammer opponent, it still won't matter. So I think the Defense Limiter and Strength and assigned higher values than shields. When I use Skull Hammer I don't use shield because I lose 1 movement but rather use Throwing knives to get +5 initiative and better guarantee that I get the alpha strike.
  7. Trapsinger Major

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    Well either way then, the advantages you can get from an offhand item seem to outweigh the strength bonus on the comet maul, which makes the rating on the maul vs hammer backwards. If you don't like the shield idea, then get a buckler for the parry that isn't reduced by a hammer attack. several off hand items that could be good.
  8. Shangular Major

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    Agree with you. Just saying that the way the rating system is weighted, it seems to put too much an emphasis on the strength bonus (the vampire has a strengh over 100 with the maul which probably explains the dramatic rating impact) and in your example above with the Reik sword the crit bonus potential. Not sure what the best solution would be but probably worth discussing some adjustments.
  9. Abides Private

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    Do pistolier warbands drop off in effectiveness at higher levels?
    If so, no worries, but I have three on the go right now and they seem underrated.
    -Six Skaven pistoliers with bluderbusses with two mages. 140 rating.
    -Five Reiklander pistoliers, blunderbusses, two fireball mages. 145 rating.
    -Four Reiklander pistoliers, three hangunners, all with blunderbusses. 152 rating.

    Still levelling the necessary skills and equipping them all, so no real armour and blunderbuss slots aren’t full. The Skaven haven’t mastered warpfire yet.
    I’ve hidden and wiped out stronger pvp opponents in a single turn. The Skaven are especially deadly with their long charge distance.

    On the flip side, if I see four mages on the other side I bolt. Take your shards.
  10. Trapsinger Major

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    Pistoliers can be effective, but it takes more skills to get them going right. To have survivability they need high weapon skill, to use the pistols they need high BS, so you need to work up two different trees. Also they have less defense than a melee guy with a shield, so you also need to be careful about getting the first strike. Also they have less armor penetration than a hammer guy, so you really need all the extra attacks. So they are harder to play, but if you are careful they should do well.
  11. Shangular Major

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    For your question of whether pistolier warbands drop off in effectiveness at higher levels - For mercs Yes but for Skaven No. Skaven's pistols are better than the Mercs (Str 50 vs Str40 and it gives a -50 Defense modifier vs -15). So at high levels they are actually very deadly, especially if used in conjunction with the sorcerer's Doom spell. From experience, my maxed Skaven pistolier can effectively kill a high level vampire. (to clarify I'm assuming that when your pistolier is high level you are facing high level opponents too)

    Also for a WH warbands, I have a captain with WS 60 and BS 70 and dual pistols don't do squat against high defense opponents like vampires. Even that 70 BS doesn't really help much or I just have really bad luck.
  12. Trapsinger Major

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    The warlock spells are definitely underrated! OMG! Just played a game against a warband with 5 lesser magic casters, who all had teleport, and fireball and the magic sword, and then three other guys with elf bows. They all teleported into combat doing 2 to 4 attacks each with their flaming swords, and threw fireballs at any one they didn't kill on the first turn. Which is fine, except that their warband rating was only 450. I think I would have needed at least 1000 to defend against that with anything other than another full band of warlocks.

    Also, after this game, I feel even more strongly that all hired swords should be limited to one of each type. No more warlock warbands! who's with me?
  13. Igenham Corporal

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    Amen to that! I do think that the hired sword spam is annoying. (the quadruple skav warlock is pretty terrifying too!)
  14. Shangular Major

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    I’ve purchased many ogres, but for the sake of improving the game balance I’d support limiting hires sword types to 1.

    Another factor to consider in balancing is level of warband. At 500 I can see how a warlock warband can be problematic. However when you get to 10000 range I guarantee that 4 warlocks are useless in PvP. If anyone wants to prove me wrong I’d love to face a 4 warlock warband against my Middenheimers

    So balancing one level may not necessarily be balanced at another.
  15. Shangular Major

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    Also remember today’s mantra: to be competitive just add ogres ;) Should possibly counter 4 warlocks
  16. Trapsinger Major

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    i'm legitimately asking, not arguing, because my brain isn't getting there. In a high level warband, what is the counter for 5 guys teleporting in from outside charge range with four attacks each at around weaponskill 80? Is it just having really high armor on everyone and hoping it holds?
  17. Igenham Corporal

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    In PvE, staying hidden as they will probably teleport into your range, in PvP...

    Probably ridiculously high armor, lots of HP, and high WS. Given that these are mages, they are probably squishy and don't hit as hard as other characters, so if you handle their alpha strike, you might be OK (though, if they wait, given their high initiative, they could chain strike you... OUCH!)
  18. Trapsinger Major

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    I think with the sword of Rezhebel they hit just as hard if not harder than other guys right? what is it? +20 weapon skill +1 attack and ... strength? They have the same base weapon skill as regular humans right? and the same base strength?

    And when i was arguing for more resilience on fanatics I was told that weapon skill is enough defense and they don't need it, so if these guys go 20 higher than that...i'm not sure they qualify as squishy, especially since they can all get dodge and elven cloaks so you can't really shoot them either.
  19. Shangular Major

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    My Middenheimers have faced opponents with 2 warlocks, although they've never faced one with 4. But at that level, 10,000+, I usually just ignore them as they are less of a threat than the other warriors (I think that's a reason by you don't see warbands with 4 warlocks when you get to that level). But if they get into charge range I kill them outright in one round or if the opponent has shooters, I just stun them and use them as missile shields.

    But why I think 4 warlocks would be easily to kill are:

    1) In PVP you are playing to an objective that is based on the center of the map, so those warlocks don't have the luxury of camping in the back because they'll have to come out in the last rounds.

    2) They'll have high initiative so will go first. But don't care as I'll keep my warband hidden or positioned to cover each other and always pass my turn. Thus warlocks will never have 2 turns in a row.

    3) Warlocks do not have access to Sprint. Thus if I position my warriors right, they can't charge and then fly away. So either I'll charge them because I have higher movement rate or they fly in and then charge. If the later, even with the Sword spell, a single warlock won't kill me (hasn't yet so far, maybe it they're super luck and crit every hit?) and they can't fly away after they attack. Remember that the Sword spell has no defense reduction modifiers. My warriors are immune to stun to i'll kill them when I activate.

    Now that brings up another point, at high level, 4 warlocks will also not fare well against a max out vampire because they'll have a hard time damaging the vampire with the Sword Spell (assuming vampire is wearing gromil and has 90 defense). Good luck doing lots of damage with no defense reduction modifiers.

    Again, I am fully supportive if we move to limiting hired sword types to 1, just saying that some of the warband builds that seem overpower at one level may be useless at another level so how do we consider that when we make balancing changes?

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