Suggestion: fix this game

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Chaosticket, Sep 16, 2017.

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  1. Chaosticket Major

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    Okay Ive brought the same topics up in this forum but not for a while.

    -------------ECONOMY
    The Economy in this game is horrible. Shards are only gathered in small numbers and everything beyond a point can be rated in "how may dozens/hundreds of shards or hundreds of battles does this cost?"

    Gromril armor costs almost 1200 gold. So how can players reasonably afford that with less than 120 shards for each character?I find 1-3 average per battle and Ive done around 200 matches with my primary warband and Im not even close to finishing.

    Character replacement costs are absurd. The costs of recruits increases eventually reaching about 150 gold for a level 1 character.
    -------------LEVELS
    The leveling system it utterly broken.Things slow to a crawl as experience requirements outscale any gain. Eventually you can reach the point where you only gain experience from taking out enemy characters, a whole ONE experience point each when character requirements reach 20-50 and you have an entire warband to level up.

    Too many skills have vague explantions and you cannot try them out to see their effects beforehand. I purchased Eagles Eyes for one of my characters to test it out and found that it has NO EFFECT.

    ---------------GAMEPLAY
    Combat is heavily unbalanced. In a one-on-one engagement between Melee and Ranged, the ranged character will lose.

    Melee weapons have multiple attacks which can have a high chance of doing double damage. Its possible to one-turn-kill with melee weapons. There are far more skills benefiting melee combat such as Fear, increased hit chances while charging, more attacks(doubled with Frenzy), free attacks when the enemy tries to run, and so on.

    In contrast range weapons are quite weak and quickly reach their maximum effectiveness after purchasing Quick Shot very early on. You cant increase ranged weapon damage, critical chance or fire more than 2 shots.
    --------------ITEMS
    Equipment are heavily unbalanced because of the economic and combat balances. Its pretty easy to have a 45% chance to ignore all damage. The most expensive melee weapons is much cheaper than the most expensive ranged weapon.

    Many items have small benefits between "tiers" but hugely increase in costs. The difference between 12% armor from a Brigandine and 16% armor from from Jack-O-Plates is about 100% increase.

    Consumables are an utter waste. Because the income are so ridiculously low using any non-permanent item in a battle means its immediately not-profitable.
    ---------------AI
    The AI has quite a few advantages. Fundamentally the AI just has to hurt you, the player. The player on the other hand has to have perfect games with no casualties.

    Routing is supposed to be the cutoff point where as a player you say "ive lost several troops, time to withdraw". The AI instead Kamikaze's troops at you trying to do as much damage as possible to the point where wiping out the entire AI team becomes the norm.

    The risks of fights quite easily outpace the rewards. If you have any character got Out Of Action, get Injured, or you see Dead above one of your characters then the battle is immediately worthless.
    ===========SUmmary
    Overall this game is far too drawn out to either get players to quit in frustration or pay cash to continue playing. This is a single player game with the AI being copied player warbands, but you have to get online to play it. Paying money for this game is questionable at best as its designed to milk money out of players to keep their characters alive and it will all be wasted when this game goes offline.
  2. CribbyCrubby Private

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    with your complaint about one-on-one fights, are you saying it's unfair a melee unit beats a ranged unit in a close engagement? Because it actually makes total sense that a guy who specializes in close combat beats a guy who specializes in range. It's like taking a kid from the boxing team and a kid on the archery team and making them fist fight. The boxer will probably win because he knows what he's doing.
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  3. CribbyCrubby Private

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    Granted, guys with guns would win in real life regardless. but then the game would just be all range and if that's what your looking for go download Xcom. It's got a good cover system and pretty much everyone uses range and it's a complete game that explains pretty much everything with tutorials.
  4. C. Michael Private

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    While I believe I can echo some of Chaosticket's concerns, I would like to attempt to revoice some of these from a different perspective.

    Economy:
    - It's not that Gromril armor costs too much - it's that the game punishes (heavily) buy 'on the way' items. It is rarely worth it to buy anything other than a baseline armor before jumping to the end armors. Because the options for what Armor may or may not do is not terribly diverse. Granted, the base TTG of Mordheim didn't have that much diversity in armor (light, med, heav, right?) in the base game. But, considering how far divergent this game *IS* from the TTG - that comparison wouldn't be fair in either direction.

    If there were lower-cost Armors with some interesting choices would make for more compelling gameplay outside of the combat.

    Example: 400 gold: Leaf Mail: Weight: 0, +1 Run Move, +17 Def.
    or
    150 Gold: Vagabond Curaiss +10 Def, Reduce in-half the chance of death from injury results.

    In otherwords - a restatement of the Economy/Items problem is that the gameplay options are not as compelling as they could potentially be with such a cool rework of the Mordheim system. In TTG, one could replace a warband member between each and every game basically.

    (Example: A warband of 4 members, finding two shards - would get paid 55 gold) This meant you could replace one regular unit (35 gold) and even have enough to give at least a basic weapon.

    Now, I'm not suggesting it should be precisely matched to TTG - again, not at all. However, with the rate of death of units (almost ~50%? for every injury) [I would very much like to know what the odds are - I've had a couple of units that only died one-in-three injures, and one that has died four out of the five time it's been injured.] it's pretty difficult to maintain an effective force. So, one either opts for the army of fist-fighters, or deliberately loses missions in an effort to not risk taking casualties.

    I disagree with Chaosticket's entire assessment regarding the AI. While his statements are positively true of the missions where you just have to rout each other, the other missions are actually quite fun. I *LOVE* the missions where the enemy team has to get their warband on the other side of the map - because I know I have a reasonable chance of surviving. They DON'T kamikaze at all. The AI clearly puts the majority of their efforts in crossing the table, as they should. These missions are the ones that are worth the risk, because there's a reasonable chance of walking away with one or two shards and maybe having 12-30 gold at the end of it - without any injuries.

    Regarding the disparity between melee and ranged - I believe I understand Chaosticket's point: the relative efficacy of the two is quite disturbing. A typical Reiklander Melee warband member (from what I have seen) has 3-6 attacks, each dealing 3-8 damage. They will hit 60%+ of the time, and critical at least one in three.

    In comparison - my truly awesome Marienburgers - I have two characters that are ranged, one that up until this morning was using an Elven bow (now a Hochland) and the other a Hochland with Sights. They get one to two shots (albeit at an impressively high range), which have a wide-range of potentialy damage - typically 1-8, with the most common being 2. I do occasionally land some consistent 3 pointers against lightly armored troops and Skaven, but, against say - Middenheimer's or other Marienburgers? Fugghedaboudit.

    So, what it comes down-to is this: Can I get my melee guys close-enough to NOT get charged, find the enemy, and subsequently line my ranged guys far-enough away to get at least two rounds of shots onto the rapidly approaching army? Sometimes, yes - sometimes no. It's fun! This part is a lot of fun. The tactical cat-n-mouse is way cool and definitely *feels* like Mordheim. However, some of the bizarreness of the skill interactions are a little much with the melee troops. The idea that even when I was had a 250 warband rating, some enemies had characters doing 6 attacks at minimum five damage each (never missing) and taking out my whole warband, that was just wild. That warband was promptly retired.

    Back to the economy vs efficacy discussion: Melee is clearly far superior. Now, to a degree it should be. Melee takes more risk (namely in being shot on your way there), however; once in melee? pfftt.. The greatest risk is finding someone lucky enough to have the horrible scars injury. Other than that, melee weapons are cheap. Melee skills are easier to accomplish (you just need advanced weapons - forget about anything that's not a sword, except for maybe one maul wielder). A Gromril sword at 100 gold for a Marienburger (120-150 for everyone else?) will decimate anything less than Gromril armor and is a better buy than a fifth warband member.

    Final note and my #1 problem with the game: Inconsistent "Cover". I'm looking at you Temple of Morr Map. There are some areas that clearly should be able to block LOS (Line of Sight) and should be able to be used as cover. However, many areas (such as the separated mausoleums near the one, central raised area in ToM) - simply don't do either from what I can tell. I definitely know they don't count as cover. For some reason warband members can't actually move close to them, the movement cursor simply has you step half-way away from the structure. It's an oddity. Also, why don't the giant trees in the market place maps block LOS from the AI?

    TL;DR version and some bulletized notes:

    - Enjoying the game so far,
    - Love the general atmosphere, though please remember "Darkness" is not a special effect - I can't hardly see the screen/characters without killing my battery and cranking up the brightness,
    - Gear selection has the potential to be extremely interesting, but, isn't.
    - Need viable gear choices that are not necessarily the "top-end-or-bust".
    - Why can I take advanced weapon fighting before having other skills in mastery?
    - Would love the injury chart to be a little less likely to produce death, but, instead more likely to produce some of the other - even if painful results.
    - Either bring-down the gold cost to recruit new units, or SEVERELY reduce the chance of death. I should WANT to retire a warband member due to dozens of injures - NOT have to retire the whole warband over and over because my newest member became my leader in three battles.
    - Please allow more of the buildings/terrain on some maps to be usable as cover.
  5. Chaosticket Major

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    I like Xcom, Jagged Alliance, and other games but this is MORDHEIM, where every character is supposed to be able to pick melee and ranged weapons on the same character. Youre supposed to have a mace in one hand and a blackpowder rifle in the other. In theory that is true, but in practice the disparity is too extreme.

    Melee combat is supposed to be complementary not exclusive. The skill system is broken so you have to invested hundreds of experience/battles to make a Ranged or Melee character and doing BOTH would take extremely dedication to reach high levels.

    This doesnt mean that melee has the advantage one it gets close, its that melee is unstoppable once it does as the damage is much higher, critical hit chances up to 55%, and between 50%-200% MORE ATTACKS. The result is a character that does a One-Turn-Kill unless the target has extremely heavy armor. Melee characters win just as soon as they get in range. Ranged Characters have to focus fire for many turns.

    Armor is quite thoroughly broken and fuels the problem. In Theory a ranged character should have a reasonable chance win in 1-v-1 engagement. In practice armor grants 30-70% invulnerability. Melee characters can use Maces that puts a cap to armor down to 20% but the best ranged weapons only have a flat 15% reduction to armor. When armor invulnerability is 55% after ARMOR-PIERCING guns are taken into effect then the combat is just broken.

    Mordheim is a game where ELVEN BOWS and 19TH CENTURY RIFLES exist alongside swords and axes. So Why are the guns so weak? I know its because Legendary-Games didnt scale things when adaptation the Mordheim tabletop game. Every melee skill in the original Mordheim game is available as the same time to character.

    Ranged skills are far more limited. There are no skills to remove the penalties for ranged. You cant shoot at a charging enemy(warhammer fantasy STAND AND SHOOT ORDER look it up)

    If they added a Quick Shot #2 that gave a 3rd shot per turn that itself would be a small but important game meaning Melee and Range at least have the same number of attacks. It doesnt mean ranged attacks cause Fear, benefit from Frenzy, have 55% critical hit, etc.

    To make ranged characters capable of NOT DYING in melee combat that the investment is HUNDREDS of experience points. Just want to hammer it home.
  6. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Crickey mate! You do realise you are playing Mordheim, and not some wimpy game where you get to win all the time? Take it on the chin and quit whinging. It's the adversity and the grind that makes it Mordheim. Otherwise, go play some game where they hold your hand all the way to the end...
  7. NgNg Major

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    It is frustrating to be earning 30-40 gold a battle, and be presented with items costing 300-400 gold. I've never had 200 gold at one time. I usually have to replace someone and re outfit with beginning gear before I can get the good stuff.
    Is there a way to maximize gold harvesting that I'm missing?
  8. C. Michael Private

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    NgNg - I find that deliberately losing battles helps a lot. Any time there is an objective for the AI to accomplish, that is more than just "kill kill" - let the AI do it.

    The missions where it says, "hold this area" or "get across this line". LET THE AI DO IT. Your Units will stay out of the way - pick-off stragglers if you find them, and then they will survive. Focus on finding those precious shards and bonus gold on the map. I had a mission where the objective was for BOTH warbands to cross the other's map zone. I let the other guy do it - lost the map, got myself five shards. Also, found 8 GC in random boxes. I walked-away from there with around 70ish gold? That was great, and not a single casualty. Sure my leader didn't get the bonus +1 xp. But pfft... Better than losing another warband member.

    Also, having fewer warband members lets you earn more per shard.
  9. Chaosticket Major

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    You do realize that there are MISSING FEATURES here?

    #1 In tabletop Mordheim battles basically ended when either team took 25% casualties because they failed a route check or willing choose to leave to conserve what theyve gained. Here its 50% wounds, not members KO'd, and the AI is so screwed up that its generally a 100% battle.

    #2 massive difference in the economy is that ONE shard found could replace a warband member, several shards could make #1 a perfectly acceptable plan to "go in, find some shards, leave". Boring but yes it could work. Here where it takes about 150 gold to replace one member with a level 1 useless character. That doesnt work.

    Here the shard values are so ridiculously low that YES you have to win every battle with zero casualties or youre paying cash for the right to spend more cash. Thats gambling.

    #3 Tabletop Mordheim most character didnt take ANY permanent injuries. You had a 33% chance to die, but then those characters were cheap and replaceable.

    #4 Tabletop Mordheim skills were beneficial, not required. a basic henchmen could take out an upgraded Hero on the first turn. Here skills are so broken in combination that every character is way beyond anything possible in Mordheim. Its more like cloning Archaon is a character goal.

    Mordheim on the tabeltop is a relatively fast game where you characters can die in one-hit but characters also level up quickly. Most characters were easily replaceable.

    This just isnt a good game with or without Mordheim. Theres no point in making it online as there is NO player interaction. There is high risk and very little reward. Its a money-sink. Im wondering when, not if, there is jsut the option to buy gold and experience for cash.
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  10. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Wow, poor little chaosmunchkin. Sorry mate, I disagree. It's a great game. If you don't like it, quit whinging and find another game to play.
  11. NgNg Major

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    People are allowed to have their own opinions, his was well thought out, and laid out cohesively. Please don't troll, just saying "your opinion sucks, you're wrong I'm right, now go away!" does not add to the discussion.
    Thanks
    I believe Legendary wants people who played the TTG to play their game, not told to go away. Especially when they have constructive input.
  12. Veteran Private

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    Do it like I do. I don't care about an uncritical Fanboy's opinion
    This Game still has a l ong way to go until I can consider it really good.
    The longer I play the the more things I find pissing me off. It's above all highly repetetive, lacks in variety of Warbands and maps. Actually the maps themselves are probably the worst part of the game,. Or is it that every warband you encounter looks the same (Plate, Longrifles and Greatweapons? The overall total randomness of everything in the game? Random deployment is shitty, too, etc.
  13. Buggritt Major

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    I found this post quite interesting and so thought I would drop my thoughts in the mix

    -------------ECONOMY
    Yes it is horrible. But that's what makes the game good.
    Mordheim as a tabletop game was such a success because you cared about the characters and really felt it when you lost one. The economy adds to that experience, it hurts when some bugger robs your Hochland. You miss that deadshot Dietrich with the chest wound. This game is meant to be difficult and the ecemony helps to make it so. I really like that about this game.

    -------------LEVELS
    Part of the fun is growing your warband. If it was too easy it wouldn't be fun. Accelerated gains for low level characters means they get on par with more experienced ones quickly. Also if you NEED to take out a guy to gain experience you'll take more risks which will lead to an injury or two which in turn will hurt (as mentioned above). This makes the impact harder for you the player and is, for me at least, part of the immersion.

    ---------------GAMEPLAY
    Melee always out-punches ranged. This is because from a ranged position you can't get hit back by the guy with the hammer. In the tabletop game most kills came from melee and the same is true in this version. This is the way it should be. The one-hundred metres can be run in under 20 seconds. Even with decently heavy armour. That's one round from a highly inaccurate musket if the firer is having a good day. I don't think you can compare historical weaponry to a fantasy game. I always have a handgunner on my team (unless it's a Middenheim warband) and I find it indespensible. However I fully expect him to take a serious beating in melee even with a brigadine.

    Have you ever been hit by mutiple shots in quick succession? From crafty buggers with elven bows, ignore cover and eagle eyes? I can't even see those gits! Even my toughest henchmen take a nasty wounding from those guys. Ranged and melee have very different roles, if you get your bowman in melee..... you're doing it wrong. Unless he has two pistols in which case good job!

    Now I haven't tested this but repeater crossbows and those gatling guns fire two shots. I think you can get four if you shoot twice. Regardless for reasons stated above we don't need ranged guys getting six attacks.... fething ouch.

    ------------ITEMS
    MOST OF MY COMMENTS (balls, caps lock) in economy apply here and I'm still experimenting with consumables. I had great success with hunting arrows against a particuarly stubborn pit fighter though.

    ---------------AI
    Now I empathise here because AI is complex-as-all-sin as it is without the added problems of limited system resources on mobile devices. I have definitely seen an improvement though which made the AI a bit less predictable.

    I'll take a wild stab in the dark (possibly with frenzy) and say that the AI uses state machines and goal-driven algorithms. I'm also going to say it doesn't use fuzzy logic, intelligent terrain and forward simulation.
    AI is hard and I think Legendary have done very well within the constraints they have to work in. I certainly could not do better (yet!)

    ===========Summary
    We have talked a lot about mechanics but games are so much more than that, or they can be. For me Mordheim (both on table and tablet) is all about the emergent storylines. My Marienburgers (The Riverpikes) have been wiped down to two members and rebuilt, the best fighter has somehting like 14 injuries! (Poor bugger's been blinded twice, not sure how that works but I like to think we roams Mordheim with two eyepatches.... and three peglegs). My first warband of Reiklanders (The Ragamuffins) lost their Captain and had the totally derranged Warrior take over. He had fear, frenzy and stupidity which produced an interesting few turns where he stood, drooling, facing off against three enemies who were too terrified to charge him.
    This game is immersive and bloody hard. These two things are what make it awesome. If the frustrating things that happen make you want to quit and ne'er return then maybe it's not the game for you. This is absolutely fine as everyone has different tastes. I grew up with permadeath games, with the Sonic games were dying meant you had to start all over again, with roguelikes where death was only a bad dungeon roll away. Mordheim fills that hole for me.
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  14. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Thanks buggritt, that's what I said only in a lot more words, and a lot more diplomantic (sic)

    I'll roughly quote the important bit again....

    "If the frustrating things that happen make you want to quit and never return, then this is maybe not the game for you"

    Finding something else to do sure beats complaining about the very MORD nature of the game. To be honest, I think if all that bothers you that much, you must never have really played the proper game at all.
  15. Buggritt Major

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    It didn't feel like Chaos was whinging to me. He layed out his gripes, had good grammar and everything he said was true. It's just I personally think he's looking from the wrong perspective.
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  16. Chaosticket Major

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    The single greatest problem is programming either Mordheim Warband Skirmish as a direct adaptation of the Tabletop or a capable stand-alone game. Its trying to be both but ends up as neither.

    The balances from the tabletop are long gone. Balances from more mainstream games are also missing.

    So you end up with problems that I see in alot of asian-made games that are (probably) defunct.

    1 Income doesnt increase between the beginning and end, so youre expected to get Gromril Armor(about 1200 gold) with about 30 gold per game, and then times 7 for your entire warband.

    2 Experience doesnt increase between beginning and much later. This means greatly diminishing returns where you have to beat dozens of enemies that are equal to you for one small upgrade.

    3 Imbalanced combat. 6 melee attacks at strength 80 and 50% critical hit chance against against 2 ranged attacks at strength 40 with a 15% chance to critical. Ranged weapons are bee stings after the early game.

    This game is a money sink, not much to say other than dont make people pay extra to keep your characters alive or access new content from patches. Its intent is to SLOOOOOOW things down and result in heavy losses you have to spend real life money to fix. The Mordheim tabletop game is probably cheaper by this point.
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  17. Buggritt Major

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    If I may, the original game needed rebalancing. Most notably the whips that were originally designed to give the Sisters some ranged capability were later rebalanced to lose the 4" whiplash. Additionally a character can be armed with two spears and strike first twice in close combat (though the designer said he would punch out anyone he caught trying to do this).

    1 Yes, this is a feature of the game. As stated before it adds to the immersion by making you care about the items and characters. It's supposed to be about working hard and feeling like you've earned something.

    2 there's inly so many ways you can swing a sword. The disparity in experience allows new players to play veterans and still pull off a win. Or at least a profitable loss. Mordheim was never a game you played to win, it was inlcusive and allowed a variety of playrs to get together and just have fun.

    3 Assuming they don't start off within tango distance of each other this is an inaccurate comparison. A ranged character will get 2-3 turns of shooting before the dude with the big axe gets within swinging distance. More if you're particularly canny with your mobile shooters. Now melee can hit harder than ranger on a blow per blow bases but then ranged isn't affected by your target's armour and cover can be entirely bypassed.

    4 this game is a good example of how to do a 'free to play' model correctly. The fate-coin member are not overly powerful but do provide an edge. You actually NOT supposed to heal your guys every time. They ARE supposed to die. Permanently. Preferably horribly. A warband is not supposed to reach tiers of power, it is supposed to be in flux all the time.

    I honestly think you have missed the point of the game. Mordheim was all about the Atmosphere and the mechanics you point out do a good job of delivering that Atmosphere to the player, it 'feels' very Mordheim.
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  18. TheWizardWatley Major

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    Yep, once again buggrit nails it (must be some smartboy ork or sumfink) The original game was never about a players own quest for self-satisfaction and glory, but about surviving against the horrible odds, and as I've said so many times, taking it on the chin and moving on.

    Chaosmunchkin, you clearly do not get understand the concept that is Mordheim. If it bothers you so much to "pay to play" (which by the way you don't have to) or that the game seems unbalanced (it isn't), then I suggest it is time you moved on and found another game to be dissatisfied by.

    My two groats, deal with it
  19. Chaosticket Major

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    I will repeat, Tabletop Mordheim is more balanced. Yes you would lose characters but their replacements wouldnt be high costs worth less than 10% effectiveness of the original. Baseline characters could easily wipe the floor with more experienced characters through numbers so there was choice of weather a player would choose Quality or quantity. Some warbands were designed around that like Elves and Dwarves being the quality while Orc/Goblin warbands being the quantity.

    There was a decision making process for players. Do you want to start out with a Hochland Long Rifle and only a few characters in your warband or maybe have the most minimal of equipment but huge number of characters? Either could work. Here, the option of purchasing expensive starting items and/or large warbands early as possible it out of the question as the starting gold as well as income is far too low, and Legendary-Games is unable to program more than 8 members per warband, except not as Skaven are able to have large amounts of Giant Rats now.

    In Warband Skirmish things are changed so all those high level items are more end-game like what you would see in World of Warcraft or just any RPG. In normal games the reward scales with difficulty.

    In tabletop Mordheim there are differences but there are checks and balances so the game isnt unwinnable. You can replace dead party members with still highly effective soldiers(they are professional semi-mercenaries after all). You can make DECISIONS that determine how the metagame works. Oh and you can TALK to other human beings. That is strangely absent from this PLAYER versus PLAYER game.

    Here, yes you are expected to play as long as possible and spend as cash much as possible. Its not Farmville or Minecraft. Its not a goalless exploration or building game, but the only real goals are to Win and raise your ranking and/or complete character upgrading.

    Again Warband SKirmish is missing the balancing factors from both tabletop Mordheim and any game.
    ----------------------------------------
    Ive had less difficulty playing the Dark Souls series, which is notorious for being difficult. Those are challenging but still fun. Warband Skirmish drew me in because I like Mordheim on the tabletop. Now its more like personal achievement to beat this deeply flawed game and move on. In this meantime Im making suggestions to fix the flaws to make this more like the better balanced tabletop game or just a solid stand-alone game..
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  20. Buggritt Major

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    We're going to have to agree to disagree here I think Chaos. Neither one of us will convince the other to see the game through their eyes. Hopefully I'll see you in the Damned City when PvP rolls out. I'll bring a ranged warband :p
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