Suggestion:. New Dreg Skill

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Trapsinger, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Trapsinger Major

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    So I've been testing the witch hunters and I really like how the Templar/fanatic skill works, and it gave me an idea. What do you guys think of a new skill for dregs called "Thrall" or "Vampire Thrall.". The idea would be that you could only choose the skill while you had a vampire leader, and it would unlock a set of other skills that gave dregs undead traits like pain immunity, poison immunity, and cause fear (for those that aren't strong enough to get it as a strength skill). I was also thinking that if you ever lost both your necro and your vamp at the same time you could promote a Dreg to leader only if he had the Thrall skill already, but he would then become a full vampire.

    Is this feasible? What do you guys think?
  2. Igenham Corporal

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    I like the ideas that give a warband more flavor and custimization, so that might be a cool skill. Just need to make shure that it is not too potent (the zealot upgrades give benefits and drawbacks).

    This might also help us move away from warbands that just spam hired swords (I'm talking to you, warbands with 3-4 ogres! ;)) by giving players more options to tinker with.
  3. Trapsinger Major

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    My thought was that it would be more like Templar which doesn't have drawbacks it just unlocks more skills. If we really wanted it to mirror the witch hunters we could take away ghouls from the crypt, and have the alternate advancement skill turn the dregs into ghouls.
  4. Igenham Corporal

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    You are right, simply unlocking new skills might be cool.
  5. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    Yeah,
    I use my undead warband quite often.
    And the dreg is nearly useless when compared to an ogre.
    I think making the ability to turn a dreg into a thrall (only one per warband would work)

    Another addition may be actually allowing ghouls to upgrade into crypt horrors,
    Say takes away weapon skill but adds strength and wounds.

    But overall your idea is great orginally, but the whole transition to vampire would be increddibly hard to program, a easier way would be just leaving it as a thrall.

    Another nice skill may be allowing the dreg to buff its vampire,
    Wether its the dreg can give vampire wounds (without losing any) or like a added bonus to skill.
    This would make undead warbands more complex as now you need to arrnge vamp and dreg together if you want buff ect.

    Though I feel dregs need a buff and maybe undead ogres a nerf (maybe something around vampiric magic weakens them with prolonged exposer, I dont know if there would be any law to bad this up)
    Its tricky as undead are really well balanced, But dregs are under-utilised.
  6. Shangular Major

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    The fanatic skill however has downsides as it takes away shooting and removes the ability to wear armor. If something like this were given to Dregs, there has to also be a downside. Not sure what you would want to take away as they already don't have speed or shooting skills. If upside only, then no I would not recommend adding a skill like this.

    The game style of Undead is supposed to balance super strong and super weak warrriors. The vampire being arguable the strongest warrior in the game. So making dregs closer to super strong disrupts that balance.
  7. Jesse Shaffer Corporal

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    The balance issue should be relatively easy to solve. Just make Dregs suck a little bit more at the start.
  8. Sean Private

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    I wouldn't want to see Dregs nerfed at all, Ghouls are rubbish against armoured opponents (which is pretty much all opponents).
    Dregs at least can be equipped with hammers and axes, and you need some grunts, can't just use Ogres and vampires!
  9. Shangular Major

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    But one thing to consider is that the Fanatic/Templar skill was a creative way to allow Witchhunter warbands access to the Witchhunter and Flagellant warrior types in the TT version. The Undead warriors in the TT version are already represented. Dregs are designed to be the crap of society so really shouldn't be buffed. They already play the same way as the TT as cannon fodder and potential secondary attack if they get into close combat soon enough before the vampires kills everyone.
  10. Trapsinger Major

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    Okay, so a few really good points were made, which mostly make me believe that this wasn't a good idea.

    When I was originally suggesting this, I was thinking that a dreg starts with the same stats as a zealot, but less leveling options because they are short a skill tree. And the perfectly valid counter point to that is that the dreg is meant to be weaker, because the vampire is stronger then anything a witch hunter can put on the field, which I wasn't thinking about in part because the vampire is a hired sword, more on that later.

    The other really good point which was made, was that all the tabletop troop types for the Undead are already represented, so to maintain the lore of tabletop Mordheim, no additional advancement is needed.

    I'd like to respond to those points, with some more of my thoughts, but first I want to say that I don't play undead. The reason I don't play undead has a lot to do with how the vampire and dire wovles were implemented in this version of the game, and that's what I'm trying to address with this suggestion. My complaint is basically that both of these troop types that were available to starting tabletop bands, and even in this version of the game are considered core to the balance of the warband, are locked behind a hired sword requirement, and a very high cost. The prohibitive cost of the vampire, means that you either have to spend real money to buy fate to hire a vampire for every band you start, and every time the vampire dies, or get four of the much weaker troops, which you are all saying don't work well on purpose to balance the vampire, to work well enough to save up the gold for the vampire, which is one of the most expensive things in the game. Because if you don't do one of those things, then the band isn't competitive, because the balance only works when you have a vampire killing everything.

    So the point of my suggestion was that if you could keep the ability to have dire wolves, and open up a new possible leader for the warband to get the academic skills that help you save gold, then a great deal of the versatility for the warband added by the vampire wouldn't be lost every time he died, and it would be easier to keep the band working well without a vampire while you saved up for a new one. Note that I am not suggesting that the dregs maximum stats be raised in any way, so he would still have less weapon skill, wounds, resilience, and attacks than a real vampire, so he wouldn't be a full replacement for the vampire, more like a stop gap to prevent your whole warband from unbalancing when the vampire dies.

    Also a big part of the argument that you guys are making is that having dregs and ghouls isn't useful in a meaningful way, except as a way to unlock vampires and ogres and warlocks which are so much better as to invalidate the dregs and ghouls. Wouldn't it be nice if you were actually playing the undead band to get the undead troops, because they were useful too? that said, my suggestion doesn't do anything to make ghouls more interesting. Can you guys think of any other ways to make the Dregs, or the Ghouls, more interesting and worthwhile on the field of the battle, that wouldn't upset the balance or feel of the undead? I personally think it wouldn't be terrible if ghouls had combat skills (except the one that requires a sword obviously), I think if ghouls had combat master, and a little extra crit and parry it would go a long way to bringing them more on par with other warriors. Maybe instead of a special "Thrall" skill line for dregs, they should just be given the Speed skills. If Dregs got speed and Ghouls got Combat then all the undead troops would have the same skill trees for advancement, and they'd all have three like the other bands. It's less interesting than a special set of undead skills, but it's easier to implement, and it would allow them to reach the same experience levels as human warriors. What do you guys think of that?
  11. Jesse Shaffer Corporal

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    While I made a balancing suggestion regarding a Thrall skill above, I’m not actually in favor of it. I just didn’t have the time to explain myself. With that said, I actually like dregs the way they are. A Thrall—or Thrall-like—skill, if implemented correctly, would be kind of neat though.

    Sean is right about ghouls. They are almost worthless and the devs don’t seem to care about that. I dissmissed a level 21 ghoul when ogres first came out and that ogre was IMMEDIATELY more effective at killing. That simply shouldn’t be. I keep one ghoul in each of my undead warbands for variety rather than effectiveness and that’s a shame. If the average ghoul had five more points in strength and their claws carried a -15 defense modifier, they’d likely be fantastic.

    The trouble with that, as conventional wisdom goes, is the vampire. Vampires are not expensive. Over the long-term, they’re the cheapest combat unit in the game. Once their initiative is high enough, you can play them like a Skaven and they practically become immortal. My highest one is a level 40 and has thus far died ZERO times. He hasn’t even had an injury since level 8 or 9. That is just crazy awesome.

    I believe the devs are of the opinion that ghouls can’t be enhanced without nerfing something else or the Undead would be too powerful. My counter to this is: what would happen if I junked ghouls entirly and replaced them with Dregs? The answer is that my warband’s power rating would go UP. That means that Ghouls do have room for improvement and that margin is MEASURABLE. Additionally, their speed skills become irrelevant if you have a Vampire with sufficiently high initiative.
  12. Shangular Major

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    This is good discussion. My view may be somewhat skewed because I’ve played the TT version and had somewhat of the same expectation with the mobile version.

    One factor that makes balancing a warband hard is the availability of hired swords like the Ogre where you can have 3-4. So in every warband and, not just Undead it makes sense to have as many ogres to be a power gamer. For example with Marienburger and reiklanders, why hire a warrior when you can have ogres.

    For my Undead, I run vampire, necromancy, ghoul, 2 dregs and 3 ogres. I use the dreg and ghouls as utility roles and rushing in to claim objectives at the last round (talking about pvp) If the dreg and ghoul were made stronger, I think this warband would be too powerful
  13. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    I still personally beleive stepping away from the lore and bringing wights in would be useful.
    Then being able to shift dreg to a hire sword.
    Removing ogres and adding crypt horrors (has no speed skills).
    This would allow the dregs to be buffed in giving them a special ability...
    And the ghouls could be buffed in allowing them simple weapons.

    So youd still have
    Super strong Vamps
    Average Horrors, Necro, Dreg
    Weak Wights, Ghoul

    But ghouls are only quick warriors other than vamp and necro...
    Wights lack strength and leadership, but have high wounds and defence and high potential for weapon skill...
    Horrors have high strength and wounds but lack pretty much everything else...
    Dreg able to buff vamp, stays same otherwise...
    Then your necro and vamp stay the same.

    So each unit has its niche that cant be filled by anything bar of course the vamp.
    So then you will come up against warbands that show all of them more often.
    This would also allow Undead to be used in different ways depending on units in warband.

    It would take alot of developing, and would stem away from TT wether good or bad, but I think this would make a nice solution other than the two major problems stated above...
    I never played TT so I dont have the connection you all have to it, and I look at it from a gameplay perspective only.
  14. Igenham Corporal

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    Looking through the thread again, I noticed one thing: several people have stated something along the lines of “why bother with ghouls/dregs when I can get 3-4 ogres”.

    So part of the issues is not that dregs need a boost, but rather that access to freelancers needs to be tweaked. Maybe it is seriously time to consider going back down to one freelancer of each type (giving the community plenty of heads up). Once that is implemented, warbands wth multiple ogres could still keep them, but could no longer replace lost ogres until the last one bites the dust...

    Part of the issue is that freelancers were rather expensive in the tabletop, not only to purchase, but to maintain, while in the app, once you hire them, their upkeep is identical to that of a regular henchmen...

    I just think that if “just add ogres, then your warband will be competitive “ becomes the way to go, we just broke the game...
    Trapsinger likes this.
  15. Trapsinger Major

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    This actually is the best idea yet! I just ran up against this problem in my discussion of the warrior priest balance on the beta server. Currently you are only allowed one warrior priest, and I was just saying how that seems unfair since the skaven can have 4 sorcerers plus they can learn sorcery on their leader. At the time I was arguing to get more warrior priests, but limiting all hired swords to 1 each is a much better idea. This would not only stop Ogre spamming, but it might give people a reason to hire the freelancer again also, if you can only have one pit fighter.

    EDIT: This got me thinking about TableTop and only getting one Halfling Scout, so i went back and checked the original book. And you could only have one of each hired sword type in tabletop as well. I think we should do this.
  16. Jesse Shaffer Corporal

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    I’m going to be a child for a moment....
    BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!! No! No! No!!!
    Sorry about that. I’m done now.

    Now that I’m done stomping my feet, I’d like to respectfully disagree with an above sentiment that I consider rather dangerous. Limiting the number of hired swords in a warband to one type each would have made a lot more sense under the old system where XP alone determined your rating and, IF AND ONLY IF, every type of hired sword were available in the game (which they are not). As of now, under the new rating system, it would just make the game less interesting. If a person builds a properly optimized warband, then an enemy warband containing x number of ogres or pit fighters won’t matter. If it does, then they are either using the wrong tactics or aren’t managing their rating correctly. Also, let’s not forget that the probability of those extra Ogres being trash goes up considerably with each additional one.

    We can start a separate thread on optimization if people care and I’d be happy to share some warband specific progression paths if it would help. It’s far better to learn new tricks then to ‘fix’ something that isn’t broken.
  17. Igenham Corporal

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    The point is not that ogres are too good. The point is that they destroy the uniqueness of each warband. If the only difference between each warband is your captain because everyone has 4 ogres, then, I’m sorry, but why have multiple warbands at all?

    I’m sorry that this would mess up your precious optimization, but if you want a game about optimization, go play an idle game.

    Mordheim was really cool because warbands acquired a different flavor over time, and being allowed to spam freelancers gets in the way of it.

    Besides, optimization will change with every patch, so you will still have to redo everything with each major patch anyways. So you will still be able to cackle over how optimized your warband is, how clever you are at managing rating to exploit the mechanics of the game, and pull one over some poor kid who thinks the game is cool and slaughter him in pvp.

    Sometimes, you have to do something that you don’t like to better the game. I’m not saying I’m right, not saying you are wrong, just saying that a stagnant game is no fun to play.
  18. Oscar Junior Programmer

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    The feedback here is great, keep it coming!

    Seems like the balance of the undead warband is something that we need to discuss internally - if players are opting to pretty much just run ogres rather than the unique undead units then it sounds like something may need to be changed.
  19. Trapsinger Major

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    Well, I think, more than just the common idea that undead troops are underpowered, this thread is also showing a common idea that ogres are overpowered. Because it's not just undead that are running four ogres. In fact the undead can only run three, because they have to use a hired sword slot on the vampire, so the "four ogre warband" is specifically other warbands.

    I don't really want to see the ogre nerfed though, as I sort of just said above, he's already not as good as the vampire. But the vampire is fine because there is only ever one, and I think the ogre would be fine if we treated him the same way.

    Maybe if a Legendary employee could explain why they chose to allow multiples of the same hired sword in a warband (contrary to the tabletop rules) then the rest of us would understand better?
  20. Igenham Corporal

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    Yes please!

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