Suggestion: Warband Balance

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Trapsinger, Sep 20, 2018.

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  1. Trapsinger Major

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    The Problem: The three human mercenary warbands are currently NOT balanced against each other. Especially under the new rating system.

    As it stands each of the three human bands gets a special ability that allows them to get to higher rating faster, but they all have the same max stats, and best in slot gear, so they should all reach the same max rating eventually. EXCEPT: The middenheimers and the marienburgers are each missing an entire skill tree that the reiklanders are not.

    Now I don't have access to the formula for your rating system, but I'm certain that if you plug in maxed out skills and gear into your formula behind the scenes you will see that the middenheimers and marienburgers fall way behind. I don't know how this stacks up against the Skaven and the Undead in the formula, but I would say that it feels like they are probably balanced well against the Reiklanders. But you should really check! I'll offer solutions either way.

    If the skaven and undead are balanced against the reiklanders, then the middenheimers and marienburgers need to be buffed up. I still want them to feel distinct though. Here are some possible solutions.

    Middenheimer buffs: make their strength and/or wound bonus apply to their maximum profile as well their starting profile. If you let their strength and wounds scale to a max level of 4 instead of three they will be always be stronger and harder to kill than the other humans. Alternatively you could take a page from the town crier magazine from the original tabletop game and give them a special middenheimer cloak item, or an exclusive hired sword The Wolf Priest of Ulric. (also the marienburgers can get some strength with hired swords, but the middenheimers can't get any shooting, so there should really be an Elf Ranger and a Halfing Scout hired sword as well, but they should be available to everyone)

    Marienburger buffs: Let all the warriors have access to academic skills. This would allow them all to have money making skills, and field more war dogs, so they could make more money and swarm to make up for their lack of strength/armor skills. (I personally think that they should get access to armor training and resilient so they don't take 25% more damage than other maxed humans, but doubling down on their strengths instead of removing their weakness gives them more character).

    Alternatively, if the skaven and undead are balanced against the marienburgers and the middenheimers, then the reiklanders need to be nerfed down to size.

    Reiklander nerf: The obvious thing to do to bring them inline with the other humans is remove access to a skill tree, which make them the same as the other two mercenary groups. I would suggest removing initiative skills from the reiklanders. There is no reason that they need to be the strongest, fastest, and *sneakiest* of all the humans. Removing the initiative skills would make them play more like honourable knights that don't need to hide, and sneak around, and ambush people. (if an Elf Ranger/Halfing Scout hired swords were added this could be a source of initiative skills like the pit fighter/freelancer was a source of strength skills)
    Shangular likes this.
  2. Frees Private

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    On a high level shooting is good but near useless. When you shoot at the gromrilled warrior you deal 0-1 damage. Even in PVE i cant defeat full-man full-gromrilled warband of crazy middenheimers with my 4 melee/3 shooty/1 mage reiklanders without heavy losses.
  3. Trapsinger Major

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    Thank you for reading my post and responding, I appreciate that. I'm going to disagree with you, but I mean in it a constructive way, so I hope I can help you do a little better against armored targets.

    First if you remove your first sentence from your response it sounds like you are agreeing with me, since you have access to exactly the same weapons, armor, skills, stats and troop types as the middenheimers, then when they do get into melee with you, the fight is by it's nature exactly fair. The only difference is you get, lets say, 2 rounds of 3 shooters getting shots at your opponent before they get there, putting you, by your estimation of 0-1 damage in six shots, 3 points of damage ahead before the melee starts, if your shooters only have one shot each (they should have two shots each putting you six points of damage ahead.)

    However, based on your general tone of disagreement with me. I think it really sounds like you are having trouble punching through the defense of heavily armored targets. It's important to remember in this game that no amount of strength or criticals will help you go through armor, you need to have armor penetration on your weapons. In melee that means blunt weapons or gromril weapons. At ranged it means you need to have an elf bow or a blackpowder weapon. Either of those choice will reduce your opponents armor by 15, and if you want a little extra kick keep some Dark Venom in your inventory and only use it when you need to shoot a heavily armored target.

    Shooting is extremely good against heavily armored or fear causing targets because it bypasses the Weapon Skill and Leadership checks required to damage against them in melee. Just make sure you are using the right weapons and have the appropriate skill to use them.

    A quick comparison, if you are using a long bow with no armor penetration, at 30 range and 30 strength. Then each shot will give you 0-1 damage, with a maximum of three rounds of shooting before they reach. If you are using a hochland long rifle with a scope and increased range from skills, and dark venom, and two shots. Then you are strength 40, range 54, plus poison. Allowing you to do 0-4 damage per shot, plus poison, for 6 rounds of movement before they reach you. And their armor is less effective because you are using blackpowder. So assume 3 points of damage per round after armor and poison, and poison, then even with only one shot per turn (again you should have two), the longbow would give you about 1.5 points of damage, and the rifle will give you 18 points of damage.
  4. Frees Private

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    I agree with your post near almost. Your calculations are right. I havent troubles with gromrilled warriors in melee, cause I have all gromriilled all comet-mauled and scoped rifle band (except mage, hehe). But we are playing not on the plain board and in many cases I have only 1-2 rounds of shooting which deal not much damage, and when enemy guys are close I understand that I have 4 good melee warriors and three shooters against 7-8 melee guys which are slightly wounded. My shooters obviously can fight in hth with skullhammers and deal UP to 4 dmg per hit on crit, but this cannot kill enemy fighter. So I give them elven swords for initiative.
    I understand that you want to equalize all human bands. And if you ask for example me, which skill tree I prefer to lose I tell you "shooting".
    Sorry for poor english.
  5. Shangular Major

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    I think a key point from the original post to note is that all mercenaries have a weakness except for Reiklanders, which is a good point. Reiklands get their bonuses (ranged level bump for marksman and additional 6 command range for leader, what's interesting in the latter is that the additional six isn't fulfilled by an automatic skill bump, thus they can get an 18 range for leadership), but there is no drawback or negative penalty. So if you wanted to be a power gamer, obviously choose Reiklanders.

    But fighting high level Reiklanders is still no problem. I currently have a high level Middenheimer warband at 12000 rating and can easily complete with high level shooty warbands. Even in pvp as those scenarios always involve capturing an objective in the center so the other warband doesn't have the luxury of simply sitting back and shooting. But the point that Middenheimers and Marienburgers lack one skill tree whereas Reiklanders have everything is a valid one.

    I understand this was set-up to mimic the table top version of the game. In the TT it can be more balanced because there are a limited number of games people play in a campaign, whereas you can play hundreds of games in the mobile version which nullifies the advantages of Marienbergers and Middenheimers.
  6. Trapsinger Major

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    The other thing about tabletop was that skill trees were mixed up between the three different hero types, and a henchman upgrade could choose any two skill trees, so you could always adjust your play style as you went. In this game where the warriors and marksman are both limited to the same skill tree choices you are more stuck in a playstyle.

    Another good solution to the imbalance, would be to give warriors and marksman different skill trees in each band. So like all the shooters could have shooting, and all the warriors could have combat, but then other things would be missing. Like maybe reiklander and middenheimer warriors could be str/combat/initiative, while the marienburger warriors could be combat/shooting/initiative, which make them able to have pistolier melee fighters, but with less defense. Whereas a pistolier marksman from one of the other band might like lack combat skills. These are just examples, it could be balanced a lot of different ways.

    My only real point was that right now it isn't balanced.
  7. Shangular Major

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    Dug out my old Mordheim rulebook last night. It looks like the merc skill tree access are based on the champion line where in the TT version, Reiklander champs don’t have access to speed skills. That should make it balanced and consistent with the original version
    Ewan Lamont likes this.
  8. Trapsinger Major

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    well...that's what i meant when i said remove "initiative skills" i just used the wrong word. so i'm down.
  9. Shangular Major

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    I know. I like your suggestion in the original post. I was simply adding a reference to the TT version. That weathered, beaten up book brings back lots of good memories :)
  10. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    I like this idea,
    I hestitated buying any other human bands cause longterm they lack the potential like reiklanders do.

    But if this is enforced,
    You cannot only give new players Reiklander warbands.
    Allowing a new player to choose from one of the three warbands would make more sense.
    If you want beast fighters, Middenheimers
    If you want range and manuevering, Marienburgers
    If you want a mixed force that is slower, Reiklanders.

    Of course hard to make this fair to current players as everyone is stuck with reiklanders.
    Though simply this can be fixed by just giving current players the choice to unlock one of the human bands other than reiklanders, or get 10-20 fate if both are already unlocked for them.
  11. Shangular Major

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    I think if this were enforced, existing Reikland warbands should be credited the skill points they invested into Speed skills so they can redistribute elsewhere.
  12. FlaminGallahs2089 Corporal

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    Yeah, but if this happened personally I would prefer a marienburger warband.

    Players should get the choice of which empire human warband if they all equal.

    Atm its more designed that reikland is best and thats why you start with them but in futureif you wanna try different then you buy other warbands.
    Whilst if they all equak I feel getting to choose between the 3 makes sense.
  13. Ewan Lamont
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    B******s! good spot - drafts change request for Reiklanders to lose speed skills.
  14. Trapsinger Major

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    Cool! I hope they really balance the humans out.

    I also love the idea that new players could choose their starting warband. But I think it probably warrants it's own separate discussion thread, for organizational purposes. I'm gonna start one.
  15. Trapsinger Major

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    So I've re-read Ewan's post like 10 times...I can't decide if he's serious or making fun of us...
  16. Ewan Lamont
    Administrator

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    I'd never make fun of you guys (much) ;)

    We have done an investigation and we can recoup the advance points spent on speed skills for non captain Reiklanders so nobody will lose any advances. That bit of the design I worked on and was convinced I'd read it as Reiklanders having access to all skills in the table top. I must have looked at the captain line - captains get access to all skills. But how we have it now is just wrong IP wise so we will need to correct it at some point.
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  17. Frees Private

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    If they will lose speed skill tree they will be the weakest warband in game. If you cant hide you will be charged by all vampires and skavens and cant fight back. Hiding is the key to win PVE battles.
    About shooting and it rediculous damage I told earlier in this thread. And obviously you cannot shoot at guys that you cant see, cause they are hiding.
  18. Trapsinger Major

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    Not having speed skills doesn't remove their ability to hide, it just makes them slightly not as good at it. (it does a lot more to remove free attacks, ranged defense out in the open, and jump up)

    That said there are already many units in the game that don't have speed skills and do just fine. Like Rat Ogres, Ghouls, zombies, giant rats, warlocks, freelancers, just to name a few.

    And even still the Reiklanders will still have access to speed skills on their captain, and on the pit fighters. And you can't say the pit fighter doesn't count because it's a hired sword, because you already mentioned the vampire and it's a hired sword also that costs two and a half times as much.

    But if you really feel that speed is important, then play one of the other human bands. You said you wanted to lose shooting, that would make you a Middenheim player.
  19. Frees Private

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    Vampire or skaven or even human with speed skills will detect warriors without speed at half of the map. Like now my guys detect those ghouls, zombies, warlocks, dregs. Oh yes, reikland warrior will be the high level dreg, which is totally useless, cause cannot charge with his charge-move 10, when speed-warrior can 1) detect dreg, 2) charge with move 12.
    I had freelancer and tried to build a good warrior but I decided to fire him cause without speed skills he cannot do anything. I hired warlock which casts his spells behind the LOSblock.
    If reiklanders will lose speed skills and no buff for shooting and detect I will play middenheimers or simply drop my 7500 rating warband. Cause if you want to win a game you must outspeed and outhide your enemy.
  20. Shangular Major

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    I think a Reiklander warband can still be very effective and competitive even without the Speed skill tree. As mentioned above, the Captain still has it and you can supplement the warband with pit fighters to get sneaky warriors. I've been messing around with my Reikland warband and it does very well. Here's the composition I have (none of any points in the Speed skill tree except for the captain.

    1) Captain - armed with a skull hammer and pistol, has flight spell (best spell in the game IMO)
    2) 3 Marksmen - armed with sniper rifles and eventually gromil armor (Reiklanders are still the only marksman to have access to Strengh tree so can get Armor Training, Resilience, and Fearsome for their shooters)
    3) 4 Ogres

    I guess I could replace an Ogre with a pit fighter if I wanted to have one close combat person able to sneak. So far haven't needed it. The key to winning the game is having the alpha strike at the right time (meaning coordinated by the entire warband, not just one guy rushing ahead and attacking). Agree that speed and hiding are significant factors to that success. But I can still achieve that without the speed skills because of the Captain's enhanced flight mobility coordinating with the Ogres. Marksmen will of course stay back and hide and shoot. This warband is only at about 1,400 right now, but I think it will still be able to compete at high levels, if I ever have the time/patience to level it up.

    It kinda feels like playing an Undead army except that I can have useful shooters instead of having 3 useless dregs.

    Bottomline though, Reiklanders should have some downside like every other warband.
    Middenheimers can't shoot
    Marienburgers can't lift
    Skaven can't stand still because they're always running away
    Undead have to balance super strong warriors with super crap warriors and also can't shoot (not well anyways)
    Reiklanders - it's good to be a one today as they can have their cake and eat it too :)
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