Tavern and Hired Swords

Discussion in 'Bugs / Suggestions / Support' started by Marquand, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Madthing Private

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    My point was not to say who or what is stronger
    It was more à matter of paywall and fairness

    Still In a sense you agreed with me lol
    One of my point is that with fate ans hired sword you can add a wizard without having to sacrifice the plate +gromril style of your captain
    If you think that wizard are way underpowered compared to a close fighter captain you should be on my side as buying the wizard get ride of a major drawback
  2. 2mBrick Private

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    Yeah, sorry, I misunderstood what you said. Happens sometimes.

    I don't think wizard is underpowered - I think wizard is a decent support unit, and even undercosted (as I said).

    Regarding Paywall & Fairness:
    The devs have to make money. If they don't, no more Mordheim. Hence, there needs to be enough motivation to purchase IAPs for people to actually do so. This means that in order for any game to be commercially viable, spending money has to provide some sort of advantage. Now, Mordheim is much less of a pay-to-win game IMO, especially you can only buy Fate, not gold, so there's no spending £5 to buy a Hochland Long Rifle, for example. Does spending money offer an advantage? It does. I have to (vary rarely) spend small amounts of money on fate (mainly to keep important guys alive), and it has given me some advantage, yes. A free-to-play player can still absolutely murder my warband (if they have enough skill).

    It will always be true, that, at a given level, the free-to-play players will ALWAYS be more skilled than the pay-to-win players. But that's not to say pay-to-win players AREN'T skilled - otherwise their money would turn not in success but into thin air.

    To conclude, I think the fate/paywall system is fine. You can buy Fate and use in certain, limited situations for certain, limited things. You still have to buy equipment and level up like anyone else, but you get Hired Swords, healing, and (most importantly) resurrection. That's not OP, to me at least. Compared to many other games where you can even LEVEL UP for cash, or even require cash to level up (be it officially or simply in practice), this game is quite fair and well-balanced. I don't think there's an issue with the paywall (only with Fate costs for things in a couple of places).
  3. Madthing Private

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    I would be ok if the hired sword were generic (either à fighter or à sorcerer) to all factions
    Think is for the skaven or the undead they are a type of character you just can t build in the case of the packmaster and cerrainly the vampire

    For those 2 factions we ALREADY paid to play them. I bought the undead because i wanted the vampire that is supposed to be any undead warband leader
    Did i bought an uncomplete faction
    Same goes for the skavens (lore wise packmaster and giant rat are just common in any skaven forces )
  4. 2mBrick Private

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    I can understand your reasoning.

    I think it's an interesting decision to have the more 'unusual' Skaven units (Packmasters, Eshin Sorcerors, Rat Ogres) as Hired Swords. I suppose they want to squeeze a bit of extra cash out of us. It would be nice if you could pay for them with Gold (even if they cost an exorbitant amount), but TBH it doesn't bother me too much.

    Skaven in particular wouldn't ever hire a 'generic' Hired Sword (such as a Pit Fighter or Warlock) because from their point of view us man-things aren't really that useful. They could have gone for a Carnival of Chaos-style thing and said 'Skaven don't get Hired Swords', and then either made Rat Ogres/Packmasters/Eshin Sorcerers available for gold or not available at all. The former would make Skaven OP, the latter would make Skaven underpowered.

    It's not a simple issue, by any means. Where money and fairness are concerned, you end up in a quagmire of debate and controversy no matter what you do. At the end of the day, it's just a game, if people want to spend money on in-game extras, that's their choice. If they want to spend money on in-game extras for the in-game extras, again, it's their choice. I understand why it can annoy some people, but it doesn't annoy me personally.
  5. _Q_ Major

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    The Fate system is fine. However, I don't like that the hired swords, for which you effectively pay ££, can so easily die (or be injured beyond usefulness) unless you spend more ££ on fate to keep 'em going. I'd prefer to either see them more expensive and you purchase the type, or have a different Out of Action table for them with less death/injury chance balanced by longer Miss x Games penalties. The former would be hard to implement retrospectively but the latter should be feasible.

    What I really dislike most though, is that unless you fill that 8th slot with a hired sword you're forced into playing with a smaller warband - I have never seen a basic warrior/marksman in the tavern once I have 7 members.
  6. Madthing Private

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    In fact an easy fix would be to treat them like faction.
    I mean you pay again to hire a vampire(which his ridiculous lore wise but whatever) And That unlock this class once and for all

    You spend fate and after you either can recruit them for gold of turn (with effort)one of your character into one
    THAT would be OK and fair for those Who already supported the game with cash

    But the current system is Just greed
    Greedy games tends to die very fast. ..
  7. 2mBrick Private

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    That's why I'm reticent to hire them (and possibly also why I only see a Warlock as a support unit).


    There's only one problem.

    If, say, I'm using my Marienburgers and I unlock, say, the Pit Fighter (because why not), do then have to pay AGAIN to use the Pit Fighter with my Reiklanders? Or, would the Pit Fighter be unlocked for all 3 Mercs? In that case, would the Pit Fighter have to cost more, since it's more versatile, even though I haven't bought Middenheimers, and thus can't strictly get the full utility? What then happens if ANOTHER warband, say, Witch Hunters, is added that can use him? Do I have to pay to use him with Witch Hunters?

    I imagine this idea came up when they were designing the game. The reason I think it was probably rejected is NOT greed, but practicality. Did greed influence the method they use? Probably, but that doesn't mean it isn't a functional method (I won't claim to like it, but I can suffer it).
  8. Madthing Private

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    Was thinking of say,2 fate to unlock it for the faction you play

    But i m Still convinced that faction you have to buy to play, should be unlocked COMPLETLY

    Game that sell unfinished product never last long. Especially for games that have pvp.
  9. 2mBrick Private

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    I take your point.

    It would be nice to have HS available for gold right away in the pay-to-unlcok Warbands, but games that can't squeeze enough money out of the players to cover the overheads for the developers don't last long either.
  10. Buggritt Major

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    Hired Swords are not a 'paywall'. I have taken plenty down with focused fire or a beefed up warband member or, in one case, a knife thrower. A savvy player can go toe-to-toe with a warband consisting of normal fighters plus the maximum hired swords and still come out on top.

    One thing that everyone seems to neglect in this game is that a 'good loss' trumps a 'bad win'. Against a higher rated warband (which hired swords bump up nicely) concentrate on getting wyrdstone, sacrifice your weaker fighters and bail as soon as you can. It is quite possible to get 3-5 wyrdstone from the match and the reduced injury table makes it less risky. Compare that to 5+ injuries an 0-2 wyrdstone on the opposite side of the same match.

    I would like to see a ranged Hired Sword other than the warlock but this is hardly game breaking. We're in the city of the damned, play like you have a pair!
    _Q_ likes this.
  11. _Q_ Major

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    Halfling please! :)
    Buggritt likes this.
  12. 2mBrick Private

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    Don't forget the Elf Ranger. He (or she) may not cook as well but they'll certainly put a few holes in anyone that messes with your Warband.
  13. Shangular Major

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    I can understand the various positions around the Hired Swords and Paywall. Yes, I do but Fate every month, but it's just to support the development of the game. Spending $14 - $25 bucks a month is really nothing for good entertainment. Plus as others have said, this is a business and if you want devs to invest time to making this game better, there has to be some profit. This Fate system is much more preferable to a monthly subscription.

    In my opinion, I think Legendary Games has done a great job in ensuring that free-to-play players are just as competitive as paying players, especially in the mobile market. I used to play a mobile MMO where top players spent >$1,000 to be competitive for pvp (I admit, yes I was guilty of being one of them, but hey I was having fun and that's what mattered). I know for a fact one guy even spent $12,000 on that game. But examples of why I think there is good balance in the paywall in this game vs other mobile games out there are:

    1) I have one warband, my solo Merc where I have never spent a single fate point. So far, it has been a very competitive warband. I'm at 500 rating and beaten warbands that are twice my rating (many of them have these hired swords). In the MMO I mentioned above, a free-to-play player would have a very hard time being competitive with p2w players.

    2) In other mobile games there are paywalls related to # of games you can play or having a recharge system where you have to wait 8 hours before playing again unless you pay something. None of this is in this game. You can play and pvp as many games as you'd like without having to pay a single penny. I hope this never changes :)
    Ewan Lamont and Buggritt like this.
  14. Buggritt Major

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    Yes to both!!

    That's a really well layed out post. Conveys my feelings on Fate perfectly.
  15. edward Major

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    yeah I think it's fine. Hired swords are cool. I just wish you could have a maximum of 8 normal mercenaries, Sucks being a slot down just because I don't want to spend fate.
  16. Buggritt Major

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    Fate has nothing to do with it dude, just ask my friend Wiz. He became top rank, numero uno, without spending any fate. Just enjoy yourself :)
  17. edward Major

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    I don't care about number 1, and I do have fun, I was talking about being locked out of an 8th slot without spending fate. That's got nothing to do with what you mentioned. Being a member down from not spending fate feels like it goes against the spirit of the game.
  18. Buggritt Major

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    Yup, misinterpreted. Was settling my Little One at 3:30ish in the morning when I wrote that.

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